Discussion:
More on the CE399 scam
(too old to reply)
Robert Harris
2006-03-13 05:06:47 UTC
Permalink
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/EvenMoreMagical.htm





Robert Harris
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
WhiskyJoe
2006-03-13 19:48:24 UTC
Permalink
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.

And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Ben Holmes
2006-03-13 21:04:50 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, WhiskyJoe
says...
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it had
survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed itself. The
shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call it the "magic
bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in evidence had really
done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
And yet, strangely enough, despite all the power of the U.S. Government, no
example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone through the wrist
(let alone a rib...) has ever been provided. In fact, the WC simply refused to
call a ballistics expert that they had commissioned, when he couldn't validate
their theory.
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and Governor
Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes and onto a
stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body.
You argue that a bullet was "planted", yet YOU YOURSELF state that a bullet
"worked it's way out of the wound".

Why would a bullet need to be planted, if it's already there?
Post by WhiskyJoe
Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets?
How silly! You're presupposing that *two* bullets were 'recovered' from
Parkland.
Post by WhiskyJoe
I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
Where is the "additional bullet" you are describing?
Post by WhiskyJoe
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever lain on
the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Apparently, you aren't very familiar with the evidence.
Todd W. Vaughan
2006-03-13 21:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Ben,
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it had
survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed itself. The
shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call it the "magic
bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in evidence had really
done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
And yet, strangely enough, despite all the power of the U.S. Government, no
example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone through the wrist
(let alone a rib...) has ever been provided. In fact, the WC simply refused to
call a ballistics expert that they had commissioned, when he couldn't validate
their theory.
"...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone
through the wrist
(let alone a rib...) has ever been provided."

Lie.

Complete lie.

Todd
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-13 23:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Ben,
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it had
survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed itself. The
shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call it the "magic
bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in evidence had really
done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
And yet, strangely enough, despite all the power of the U.S. Government, no
example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone through the wrist
(let alone a rib...) has ever been provided. In fact, the WC simply refused to
call a ballistics expert that they had commissioned, when he couldn't validate
their theory.
"...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone
through the wrist
(let alone a rib...) has ever been provided."
Lie.
Complete lie.
So, which example are you thinking about? Upload?
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
2006-03-14 18:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Tony,

<So, which example are you thinking about? Upload? <

The test done by Martin Fackler.

Todd
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-15 05:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Tony,
<So, which example are you thinking about? Upload? <
The test done by Martin Fackler.
That's what I thought. Upload?
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Todd
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-15 05:17:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Tony,
<So, which example are you thinking about? Upload? <
The test done by Martin Fackler.
That's what I thought.
Is this the bullet you mean?

Loading Image...
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Todd
Ben Holmes
2006-03-13 23:51:16 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Todd W.
Vaughan says...
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Ben,
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it had
survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed itself. The
shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call it the "magic
bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in evidence had really
done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
And yet, strangely enough, despite all the power of the U.S. Government, no
example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone through the wrist
(let alone a rib...) has ever been provided. In fact, the WC simply refused to
call a ballistics expert that they had commissioned, when he couldn't validate
their theory.
"...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone
through the wrist
(let alone a rib...) has ever been provided."
Lie.
Complete lie.
Todd
The examples that the WC produced are available online. Feel free to cite
them... or, if you wish, you may actually *cite* anything else you feel proves
your point.

Until that time, you have, as you have in the past, simply lied to make a point.

And when you have to lie to support the "truth", perhaps you need to take a look
at what "truth" you believe is true.
Todd W. Vaughan
2006-03-14 18:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
The examples that the WC produced are available online. Feel free to cite
them... or, if you wish, you may actually *cite* anything else you feel proves
your point.
Until that time, you have, as you have in the past, simply lied to make a point.
And when you have to lie to support the "truth", perhaps you need to take a look
at what "truth" you believe is true.
Liar Ben,

You didn't limit this to the WC tests.

You said "...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely
gone through the wrist...has ever been provided."

Have you ever heard of Dr. Martin Fackler?

Todd
Ben Holmes
2006-03-14 22:49:42 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>, Todd W.
Vaughan says...
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Post by Ben Holmes
The examples that the WC produced are available online. Feel free to cite
them... or, if you wish, you may actually *cite* anything else you feel proves
your point.
Until that time, you have, as you have in the past, simply lied to make a point.
And when you have to lie to support the "truth", perhaps you need to take a look
at what "truth" you believe is true.
Liar Ben,
You didn't limit this to the WC tests.
You said "...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely
gone through the wrist...has ever been provided."
Have you ever heard of Dr. Martin Fackler?
Todd
Bring him on. Show photos of the bullet, show the bones that it went through,
and the rifle, distance, and velocity.

Physics isn't going to be mocked by a liar the likes of you, Toddy.
Todd W. Vaughan
2006-03-15 00:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Ben Holmes
The examples that the WC produced are available online. Feel free to cite
them... or, if you wish, you may actually *cite* anything else you feel proves
Post by Ben Holmes
your point.
Until that time, you have, as you have in the past, simply lied to make a point.
And when you have to lie to support the "truth", perhaps you need to take a look
at what "truth" you believe is true.
Liar Ben,
You didn't limit this to the WC tests.
You said "...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely
gone through the wrist...has ever been provided."
Have you ever heard of Dr. Martin Fackler?
Todd
Bring him on. Show photos of the bullet, show the bones that it went through,
and the rifle, distance, and velocity.
Physics isn't going to be mocked by a liar the likes of you, Toddy.
Liar-Coward,

You didn't answer the question, did you.

You avoided it like a coward.

I'll ask again: Have you ever heard of Dr. Martin Fackler?

Well, have you?

Todd
Gil Jesus
2006-03-15 01:08:35 UTC
Permalink
The keystone of the Warren Commission's case against Lee Harvey Oswald
was what became known as "The Single Bullet Theory".
This theory (which has never been proven) was necessitated by the
timing of the shots as recorded by the Zapruder film, and the number of
shells (3) that were found in the Texas School Book Depository.
The Single Bullet Theory maintains that one shot hit JFK in the head,
the other missed the car completely striking the curb and causing a
piece of concrete or bullet to strike James Tague in the face, and the
third was "the single bullet" that was responsible for all of the
non-fatal wounds in President Kennedy and Governor Connally.

It is this bullet, Commission Exhibit No. 399, which the Commission
claimed was the one that caused all of the non-fatal wounds in both
men.
The Commission reported that this bullet had been found on Governor
Connally's stretcher at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
However, not only was this bullet not found on the Governor's
stretcher, there is strong evidence that this bullet was not fired in
Dealey Plaza and thus had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK
or the wounding of Governor Connally.

First, let's take a look at the discovery of the bullet.

STRETCHING THE STRETCHER BULLET

When the presidential limousine arrived at Parkland Hospital, the
Governor was taken into Trauma Room 2 (The President was taken to
Trauma Room 1) in the hospital's emergency room. After being examined
by the doctors, he was taken, on the same stretcher, to a second floor
operating room. There he was removed from the stretcher and placed on
an operating cart. An orderly, R.J.Jimison, then rolled the stretcher
onto an elevator, leaving it unattended.
(WC Report, pp. 80-81)

Senior Hospital Engineer Darrell Tomlinson discovered the stretcher on
the elevator and placed it next to a stretcher located in a corridor on
the ground floor at about 1:12 PM. Despite the Commission's contention
that "a few minutes later he bumped one of the stretchers against a
wall and a bullet rolled out", Tomlinson actually left the stretcher
unattended for almost 40 minutes. He discovered the bullet sometime
between 1:45 and 1:50 PM. (Ibid., 81)

Tomlinson stated that, "I bumped the the wall and a spent cartridge or
bullet rolled out that apparently been lodged under the edge of the
mat." (WC Hearings VI, p. 130)
Tomlinson, being the person that found the bullet, was the only source
of information about its location when found. As such, he was subjected
to a series of leading questions by WC Counsel Arlen "Single Bullet
Theory" Specter. Tomlinson later told a researcher that he had been
unhappy with Specter's line of questioning. Originally certain that the
bullet came from a stretcher that had no connection to the case,
Tomlinson finally admitted that the bullet may have come from
Connally's stretcher after being hounded by Specter.
If Tomlinson was unhappy with Specter, the Commission was quite happy.
It concluded that " although Tomlinson was not certain whether the
bullet came from the Connally stretcher or an adjacent one, the
Commission has concluded that the bullet came from Governor Connally's
stretcher." (Ibid. VI, 130-34; Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas, 205-6;
WC Report, 81)

Tomlinson was certain that the bullet was on a stretcher that was not
Governor Connally's and had nothing to do with the assassination.
However, even if the only witness was uncertain, the Commission
concluded on its own and with no proof to support it, that the bullet
came from Connally's stretcher.
In the realm of American jurisprudence, this conclusion would be
laughable if the case hadn't involved a murder.
Such stupidity would have been thrown out of "Judge Judy's " courtroom
for sure !

But that's not the end of this bizarre tale--there's more !

SUBSTITUTION OF THE STRETCHER BULLET

Neither Tomlinson, nor the man he gave the bullet to, O.P. Wright,
personnel director of security at the hospital, would identify CE 399
as the bullet found on the stretcher. In November 1966, Wright was
interviewed by researcher Josiah Thompson and told him, in the
prescence of two witnesses, that CE 399 was definitely NOT the bullet
that Tomlinson handed him. Wright procured a pointed .30 caliber bullet
and told Thompson that the bullet resembled it.
(Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas, p. 175-76)

Wright's revelation suggests that after he turned over to the Secret
Service the bullet that Tomlinson found, it was substituted for a
bullet that could be ballistically matched to Oswald's rifle.
And that Western Cartridge bullet that was fired from Oswald's rifle
after the assassination and used to replace the bullet that Tomlinson
found, became Warren Commission Exhibit 399--what I call, "the
Not-So-Magic Bullet".

The substitution of CE 399 for the stretcher bullet is more than
possible : the facts support it.

The stretcher bullet was never taken seriously by either the FBI or the
Secret Service as evidence in the case. When O.P. Wright tried to get
the FBI to come look at the bullet on the stretcher, they were
uninterested. Then he contacted a Secret Service agent who refused to
view it. The bullet was never photographed in its position of
discovery. So Wright picked it up and carried it over to SS Agent
Richard Johnson, who put it in his pocket without putting any
identifying marks on it.
Apparently, none of the Federal agencies were interested in collecting
evidence at the time.

The chain of possession of this particular piece of evidence indicates
that it was the FBI, and not the Secret Service, that made the
substitution from the stretcher bullet to CE 399. The stretcher bullet
went from SA Johnson to SS Chief James Rowley, who turned it over to
Elmer Todd of the FBI who then gave it to Robert Frazier of the FBI
lab. (WC Hearings, XVIII, pp. 799-800)

Tomlinson and Wright, the only men who saw the bullet on the stretcher,
would not identify CE 399 as being that bullet.
Also, SS Chief Rowley and SA Johnson also would not identify CE 399 as
the stretcher bullet. (Ibid., XXIV, p. 412)

So here we have four witnesses within the chain of possession of the
evidence that say that CE 399 was NOT the bullet found on the stretcher
at Parkland Hospital. And yet, some time between Rowley's handing it to
Todd and Todd giving it to Frazier, the stretcher bullet became CE 399.
How do I know it was the FBI that substituted the bullet ? Because
Rowley refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet that he gave to the
FBI. Which means that CE 399 was NOT the bullet that he gave to them.
He handed the REAL stretcher bullet to Todd. Agent Todd received the
real stretcher bullet and while this bullet was in the possession of
the FBI, because it had no bearing on the case against Oswald, it was
replaced by a bullet that had been fired from Oswald's rifle--that
bullet we now know as CE 399.

VISUAL EXAMINATION OF CE 399

Upon receiving CE 399, Robert Frazier examined it and said that the
bullet did not have ANY microscopic particles from Kennedy's shirt or
coat or Connally's shirt, coat, or trousers, despite having allegedly
gone through all five garments.
(WC Hearings III, pp 428-31)

He further went on to say that had the bullet gone through coarse cloth
or leather, he would have expected to see microscopic particles of
those fabrics on the bullet. Why ? Because, ALL bullets pick up
microscopic particles from ANY fabric that they travel through and he
expected to see particles of fabric from the victim's clothing on CE
399.
But this was not the case when he examined this bullet.

What Frazier is saying here is this: based on his experience with
bullets travelling through clothing, CE 399 did not go through either
Kennedy's shirt and coat, or Connally's shirt and coat. Nor did it pass
through his trousers.

Without particles of clothing on the bullet, the only way that CE 399
could have travelled through both men was if they had taken their
shirts and coats off before they were shot. And that didn't happen.

The lack of microscopic particles of the President's clothing or
Governor Connally's clothing on CE 399 is further evidence that this
bullet had nothing to do with the assassination of President John F.
Kennedy or the wounding of Governor John B. Connally. The additional
fact that four eyewitnesses refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet
found on the stretcher at Parkland Hospital further supports my theory
that CE 399 had nothing to do with the assassination of President
Kennedy and the wounding of Governor Connally.

But that's not the only thing missing from this bullet.

There was no blood or bone particles on CE 399 when examined, despite
it allegedly having gone through two good-sized men. This bullet was
alleged to have caused seven wounds: two in Kennedy and five in
Connally. It blew out four inches of the Governor's fifth rib,
pulverizing it into dust, broke the radial bone in his right wrist and
ended up in his thigh and yet--no blood, no bone.
(WC Hearings III, pp 428-31)

If the witnesses' refusal to identify CE 399 as the stretcher bullet,
the lack of microscopic particles from the victim's clothing on CE 399,
and the lack of bone or blood on CE 399 hasn't convinced the reader yet
that CE 399 had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK and the
wounding of JBC, let's consider the Neutron Activation Analysis that
was performed on CE 399 and the fragments removed from Governor
Connally's wrist.

CE 399 AND THE CONNALLY WRIST FRAGMENTS

Let me preface this section by saying that every manufacturer of
ammunition has his own mixture of elements when making lead. In
addition, every manufacturer uses the same mixture in every one of his
bullets, regardless of the caliber. Only by measuring those elements
can Law Enforcement investigators determine which manufacturer made a
particular bullet. In a single ammunition-type scenario, all of the
elements of recovered bullets and bullet fragments will be identical.
Conversely, ANY variation of the percentage of any one element,
indicates that the bullets and bullet fragments were made from
different manufacturers.

The significance of all of this is that only one manufacturer, Western
Cartridge Company, made ammunition for the Mannlicher-Carcano, the
alleged murder weapon. Since only one manufacturer made the ammunition,
all of the bullets and bullet fragments should have the exact same
percentage of each element. Conversely, if the percentages differed
even slightly, it would indicate that some of the bullets or bullet
fragments originated from ammunition made by a manufacturer other than
Western.
If the elements do not match ANY manufacturer, chances are that someone
melted down the lead from bullets and made their own "reloads". We will
examine that possibility later.

If the ammunition came from a source other than Western, the weapon
that fired it could not have been Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, or
for that matter, ANY Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, because Western was the
only one that made the ammo for that rifle.

Having said all of that, investigators would be looking to compare CE
399, the Single Bullet that the FBI alleged had created all of the
non-fatal wounds in president Kennedy and Governor Connally, with the
bullet fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist. If the
elements were exactly the same, like a fingerprint, it would be solid
evidence that CE 399 was the same bullet that hit Governor Connally in
the wrist. In addition, in this particular test, they compared CE 399
(which they knew WAS ammo for a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle) with the
Kennedy head fragments and the fragments found in the limousine.
( To try to prove that one gun made all of the shots)

The method used to examine the bullets and bullet fragments was the
Neutron Activation Analysis. It is a procedure whereby objects are
bombarded with nuclear radiation. The irradiated objects will display
different levels of radiation according to their chemical composition.
Each of the chemical elements composing the object will emit gamma
rays, which can be measured in amounts as small as one-billionth of a
gram. Each Western Cartridge bullet is made up of copper, lead, silver,
antimony, bismuth, zinc, and traces of other elements. In this test,
only silver and antimony were measured.

The results of the test for silver and antimony indicated that CE 399
did NOT match the Connally wrist fragments.
In addition, CE 399 was compared to the Kennedy head fragments and the
limousine fragments. It matched neither. The Kennedy head fragments
contained 20% less silver and 40% less antimony than CE 399.
(FBI Results of Neutron Activation Analysis, 72-page report dated 6 May
1964, FBI papers)

Since CE 399 was a Western Cartridge round and did not match the
Kennedy head fragments or the limousine fragments, the test proved that
the bullets that caused these fragments were NOT Western Cartridge
ammunition and thus had NOT been fired from a Mannlicher Carcano rifle.
More importantly, it proved that the Kennedy head shot did NOT come
from a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.

The test was so conclusive, that the FBI did not waste their time
measuring any of the other elements.

SUBSTITUTION OF THE WRIST FRAGMENTS

In September 1977, the House Select Committee on Assassinations had
another NAA test done on CE 399 and the Connally wrist fragments. Its
expert, Dr. Vincent P. Guinn of the Chemistry Department at the
University of California at Irvine, conducted the test.
Dr. Guinn found that the Connally wrist fragment contained 25% more
silver and 850% more copper than CE 399. It also contained 2400% more
sodium and 1100% more chlorine and it contained 8.1 parts per million
of aluminum, while CE 399 contained none.
(HSCA Hearings, I, p.538)

However, there were evidentiary problems with Dr. Guinn's test. The
wrist fragments that were originally tested in 1964 had vanished by the
time Guinn began his work for the HSCA. (I HSCA, p. 562)
The fragments he received from the National Archives were NOT the same
fragments tested in 1964. The description of the 1964 fragments did not
match the fragments he received in 1977.
When he weighed the fragments, not one of the fragments that he was
given matched the weight on record of a 1964 fragment.
Guinn told the HSCA that the Archives assured him that the fragments
they gave him were "the only bullet-lead fragments from this case still
present in the Archives". Guinn stated: "Presumably those are in
existence somewhere..but where they are, I have no idea." He also told
the committee that the wrist fragments would not have been destroyed by
testing in 1964.
To this day, no one knows what happened to the original Connally wrist
fragments. (I HSCA, p. 562)

The implication here is obvious: Sometime between the completion of the
original test in 1964 and the time Dr. Guinn received the fragments
from the National Archives in 1977, the 1964 wrist fragments were
substituted with fragments from CE 399.

In a tape recorded interview in the hallway after his testimony to
HSCA, Dr. Guinn posed the possibility of substitution in explaining why
two different tests resulted in two different conclusions. He said,
"Possibly they would take a bullet, take out a few little pieces and
put it in the container, and say, 'This is what came out of Connally's
wrist'. And naturally, if you compare it with 399, it will look
alike....I have no control over these things."
Which explains why Dr. Guinn concluded that the Connally wrist
fragments and CE 399 were a match, despite the overwhelming evidence to
the contrary and the indication that the fragments that he tested in
1977 were not the original Connally wrist fragments.

He had no control over his conclusions.

MY CONCLUSIONS

I believe that I've made a pretty good case for throwing out CE 399 as
evidence. That's what would have been done to it if it had been
introduced as evidence in any murder case in any court in the US. It's
garbage ! It's manufactured evidence and has no bearing on the
assassination of President Kennedy and the wounding of Governor
Connally.

Even though it contained ballistic markings that matched it to Oswald's
rifle, there is no proof that CE 399 was fired on November 22, 1963.
There is substantial proof, however, that CE 399 was fired at a later
date when the rifle was in the hands of the FBI. CE 399 lacked clothing
fibers from either victim. It lacked blood and bone particles from
either victim. Four eyewitnesses who possessed the stretcher bullet
refused to identify CE 399 as that bullet. The Neutron Activation Test
conducted by the Atomic Energy Commission in 1964 found differences in
the silver and antimony between the Connally wrist fragments and CE
399, proving that CE 399 was NOT the bullet that struck Governor
Connally's wrist. And Dr. Vincent Guinn's test, comparing CE 399 to the
wrist fragments, for the House Select Committee on Assassinations in
1977, is useless because (by his own admission) he did not test the
original wrist fragments.

More significant, is that the above evidence shows that since CE 399
WAS a Western Cartridge bullet, and it didn't match ANY of the
fragments in Connally's wrist, the President's head, or the limousine,
and since Western was the only company that made ammunition for the
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, the evidence also proves that a
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle did not cause ANY of Connally's wounds or
Kennedy's head wound.

All of the above reasons support my theory that CE 399 was not part of
the Kennedy Assassination in any way. It really was the
"Not-So-Magic-Bullet", because it never did anything magical.
In fact, it never did anything at all.
Ben Holmes
2006-03-15 15:12:30 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Gil Jesus
says...
Post by Gil Jesus
The keystone of the Warren Commission's case against Lee Harvey Oswald
was what became known as "The Single Bullet Theory".
This theory (which has never been proven) was necessitated by the
timing of the shots as recorded by the Zapruder film, and the number of
shells (3) that were found in the Texas School Book Depository.
The Single Bullet Theory maintains that one shot hit JFK in the head,
the other missed the car completely striking the curb and causing a
piece of concrete or bullet to strike James Tague in the face, and the
third was "the single bullet" that was responsible for all of the
non-fatal wounds in President Kennedy and Governor Connally.
It is this bullet, Commission Exhibit No. 399, which the Commission
claimed was the one that caused all of the non-fatal wounds in both
men.
The Commission reported that this bullet had been found on Governor
Connally's stretcher at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
However, not only was this bullet not found on the Governor's
stretcher, there is strong evidence that this bullet was not fired in
Dealey Plaza and thus had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK
or the wounding of Governor Connally.
First, let's take a look at the discovery of the bullet.
STRETCHING THE STRETCHER BULLET
When the presidential limousine arrived at Parkland Hospital, the
Governor was taken into Trauma Room 2 (The President was taken to
Trauma Room 1) in the hospital's emergency room. After being examined
by the doctors, he was taken, on the same stretcher, to a second floor
operating room. There he was removed from the stretcher and placed on
an operating cart. An orderly, R.J.Jimison, then rolled the stretcher
onto an elevator, leaving it unattended.
(WC Report, pp. 80-81)
Senior Hospital Engineer Darrell Tomlinson discovered the stretcher on
the elevator and placed it next to a stretcher located in a corridor on
the ground floor at about 1:12 PM. Despite the Commission's contention
that "a few minutes later he bumped one of the stretchers against a
wall and a bullet rolled out", Tomlinson actually left the stretcher
unattended for almost 40 minutes. He discovered the bullet sometime
between 1:45 and 1:50 PM. (Ibid., 81)
Tomlinson stated that, "I bumped the the wall and a spent cartridge or
bullet rolled out that apparently been lodged under the edge of the
mat." (WC Hearings VI, p. 130)
Tomlinson, being the person that found the bullet, was the only source
of information about its location when found. As such, he was subjected
to a series of leading questions by WC Counsel Arlen "Single Bullet
Theory" Specter. Tomlinson later told a researcher that he had been
unhappy with Specter's line of questioning. Originally certain that the
bullet came from a stretcher that had no connection to the case,
Tomlinson finally admitted that the bullet may have come from
Connally's stretcher after being hounded by Specter.
If Tomlinson was unhappy with Specter, the Commission was quite happy.
It concluded that " although Tomlinson was not certain whether the
bullet came from the Connally stretcher or an adjacent one, the
Commission has concluded that the bullet came from Governor Connally's
stretcher." (Ibid. VI, 130-34; Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas, 205-6;
WC Report, 81)
Tomlinson was certain that the bullet was on a stretcher that was not
Governor Connally's and had nothing to do with the assassination.
However, even if the only witness was uncertain, the Commission
concluded on its own and with no proof to support it, that the bullet
came from Connally's stretcher.
In the realm of American jurisprudence, this conclusion would be
laughable if the case hadn't involved a murder.
Such stupidity would have been thrown out of "Judge Judy's " courtroom
for sure !
But that's not the end of this bizarre tale--there's more !
SUBSTITUTION OF THE STRETCHER BULLET
Neither Tomlinson, nor the man he gave the bullet to, O.P. Wright,
personnel director of security at the hospital, would identify CE 399
as the bullet found on the stretcher. In November 1966, Wright was
interviewed by researcher Josiah Thompson and told him, in the
prescence of two witnesses, that CE 399 was definitely NOT the bullet
that Tomlinson handed him. Wright procured a pointed .30 caliber bullet
and told Thompson that the bullet resembled it.
(Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas, p. 175-76)
Wright's revelation suggests that after he turned over to the Secret
Service the bullet that Tomlinson found, it was substituted for a
bullet that could be ballistically matched to Oswald's rifle.
And that Western Cartridge bullet that was fired from Oswald's rifle
after the assassination and used to replace the bullet that Tomlinson
found, became Warren Commission Exhibit 399--what I call, "the
Not-So-Magic Bullet".
The substitution of CE 399 for the stretcher bullet is more than
possible : the facts support it.
The stretcher bullet was never taken seriously by either the FBI or the
Secret Service as evidence in the case. When O.P. Wright tried to get
the FBI to come look at the bullet on the stretcher, they were
uninterested. Then he contacted a Secret Service agent who refused to
view it. The bullet was never photographed in its position of
discovery. So Wright picked it up and carried it over to SS Agent
Richard Johnson, who put it in his pocket without putting any
identifying marks on it.
Apparently, none of the Federal agencies were interested in collecting
evidence at the time.
The chain of possession of this particular piece of evidence indicates
that it was the FBI, and not the Secret Service, that made the
substitution from the stretcher bullet to CE 399. The stretcher bullet
went from SA Johnson to SS Chief James Rowley, who turned it over to
Elmer Todd of the FBI who then gave it to Robert Frazier of the FBI
lab. (WC Hearings, XVIII, pp. 799-800)
Tomlinson and Wright, the only men who saw the bullet on the stretcher,
would not identify CE 399 as being that bullet.
Also, SS Chief Rowley and SA Johnson also would not identify CE 399 as
the stretcher bullet. (Ibid., XXIV, p. 412)
So here we have four witnesses within the chain of possession of the
evidence that say that CE 399 was NOT the bullet found on the stretcher
at Parkland Hospital. And yet, some time between Rowley's handing it to
Todd and Todd giving it to Frazier, the stretcher bullet became CE 399.
How do I know it was the FBI that substituted the bullet ? Because
Rowley refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet that he gave to the
FBI. Which means that CE 399 was NOT the bullet that he gave to them.
He handed the REAL stretcher bullet to Todd. Agent Todd received the
real stretcher bullet and while this bullet was in the possession of
the FBI, because it had no bearing on the case against Oswald, it was
replaced by a bullet that had been fired from Oswald's rifle--that
bullet we now know as CE 399.
VISUAL EXAMINATION OF CE 399
Upon receiving CE 399, Robert Frazier examined it and said that the
bullet did not have ANY microscopic particles from Kennedy's shirt or
coat or Connally's shirt, coat, or trousers, despite having allegedly
gone through all five garments.
(WC Hearings III, pp 428-31)
He further went on to say that had the bullet gone through coarse cloth
or leather, he would have expected to see microscopic particles of
those fabrics on the bullet. Why ? Because, ALL bullets pick up
microscopic particles from ANY fabric that they travel through and he
expected to see particles of fabric from the victim's clothing on CE
399.
But this was not the case when he examined this bullet.
What Frazier is saying here is this: based on his experience with
bullets travelling through clothing, CE 399 did not go through either
Kennedy's shirt and coat, or Connally's shirt and coat. Nor did it pass
through his trousers.
Without particles of clothing on the bullet, the only way that CE 399
could have travelled through both men was if they had taken their
shirts and coats off before they were shot. And that didn't happen.
The lack of microscopic particles of the President's clothing or
Governor Connally's clothing on CE 399 is further evidence that this
bullet had nothing to do with the assassination of President John F.
Kennedy or the wounding of Governor John B. Connally. The additional
fact that four eyewitnesses refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet
found on the stretcher at Parkland Hospital further supports my theory
that CE 399 had nothing to do with the assassination of President
Kennedy and the wounding of Governor Connally.
But that's not the only thing missing from this bullet.
There was no blood or bone particles on CE 399 when examined, despite
it allegedly having gone through two good-sized men. This bullet was
alleged to have caused seven wounds: two in Kennedy and five in
Connally. It blew out four inches of the Governor's fifth rib,
pulverizing it into dust, broke the radial bone in his right wrist and
ended up in his thigh and yet--no blood, no bone.
(WC Hearings III, pp 428-31)
If the witnesses' refusal to identify CE 399 as the stretcher bullet,
the lack of microscopic particles from the victim's clothing on CE 399,
and the lack of bone or blood on CE 399 hasn't convinced the reader yet
that CE 399 had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK and the
wounding of JBC, let's consider the Neutron Activation Analysis that
was performed on CE 399 and the fragments removed from Governor
Connally's wrist.
CE 399 AND THE CONNALLY WRIST FRAGMENTS
Let me preface this section by saying that every manufacturer of
ammunition has his own mixture of elements when making lead. In
addition, every manufacturer uses the same mixture in every one of his
bullets, regardless of the caliber. Only by measuring those elements
can Law Enforcement investigators determine which manufacturer made a
particular bullet. In a single ammunition-type scenario, all of the
elements of recovered bullets and bullet fragments will be identical.
Conversely, ANY variation of the percentage of any one element,
indicates that the bullets and bullet fragments were made from
different manufacturers.
The significance of all of this is that only one manufacturer, Western
Cartridge Company, made ammunition for the Mannlicher-Carcano, the
alleged murder weapon. Since only one manufacturer made the ammunition,
all of the bullets and bullet fragments should have the exact same
percentage of each element. Conversely, if the percentages differed
even slightly, it would indicate that some of the bullets or bullet
fragments originated from ammunition made by a manufacturer other than
Western.
If the elements do not match ANY manufacturer, chances are that someone
melted down the lead from bullets and made their own "reloads". We will
examine that possibility later.
If the ammunition came from a source other than Western, the weapon
that fired it could not have been Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, or
for that matter, ANY Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, because Western was the
only one that made the ammo for that rifle.
Having said all of that, investigators would be looking to compare CE
399, the Single Bullet that the FBI alleged had created all of the
non-fatal wounds in president Kennedy and Governor Connally, with the
bullet fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist. If the
elements were exactly the same, like a fingerprint, it would be solid
evidence that CE 399 was the same bullet that hit Governor Connally in
the wrist. In addition, in this particular test, they compared CE 399
(which they knew WAS ammo for a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle) with the
Kennedy head fragments and the fragments found in the limousine.
( To try to prove that one gun made all of the shots)
The method used to examine the bullets and bullet fragments was the
Neutron Activation Analysis. It is a procedure whereby objects are
bombarded with nuclear radiation. The irradiated objects will display
different levels of radiation according to their chemical composition.
Each of the chemical elements composing the object will emit gamma
rays, which can be measured in amounts as small as one-billionth of a
gram. Each Western Cartridge bullet is made up of copper, lead, silver,
antimony, bismuth, zinc, and traces of other elements. In this test,
only silver and antimony were measured.
The results of the test for silver and antimony indicated that CE 399
did NOT match the Connally wrist fragments.
In addition, CE 399 was compared to the Kennedy head fragments and the
limousine fragments. It matched neither. The Kennedy head fragments
contained 20% less silver and 40% less antimony than CE 399.
(FBI Results of Neutron Activation Analysis, 72-page report dated 6 May
1964, FBI papers)
This problem led to Hoover warning the WC that doing NAA tests on the shirt
collar for the alleged "exit" wound in the neck would not be worth doing.
Post by Gil Jesus
Since CE 399 was a Western Cartridge round and did not match the
Kennedy head fragments or the limousine fragments, the test proved that
the bullets that caused these fragments were NOT Western Cartridge
ammunition and thus had NOT been fired from a Mannlicher Carcano rifle.
More importantly, it proved that the Kennedy head shot did NOT come
from a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.
The test was so conclusive, that the FBI did not waste their time
measuring any of the other elements.
Apologists have snuck up and tried to make the NAA prove what it didn't... it's
sad that science has been misused to prop up lies.
Post by Gil Jesus
SUBSTITUTION OF THE WRIST FRAGMENTS
In September 1977, the House Select Committee on Assassinations had
another NAA test done on CE 399 and the Connally wrist fragments. Its
expert, Dr. Vincent P. Guinn of the Chemistry Department at the
University of California at Irvine, conducted the test.
Dr. Guinn found that the Connally wrist fragment contained 25% more
silver and 850% more copper than CE 399. It also contained 2400% more
sodium and 1100% more chlorine and it contained 8.1 parts per million
of aluminum, while CE 399 contained none.
(HSCA Hearings, I, p.538)
However, there were evidentiary problems with Dr. Guinn's test. The
wrist fragments that were originally tested in 1964 had vanished by the
time Guinn began his work for the HSCA. (I HSCA, p. 562)
The fragments he received from the National Archives were NOT the same
fragments tested in 1964. The description of the 1964 fragments did not
match the fragments he received in 1977.
This is a problem that *no* LNT'er will attack head on and explain. For, much
like many other problems in this case, it simply is *not* explainable in terms
other than a conspiracy to frame LHO and coverup what really happened.
Post by Gil Jesus
When he weighed the fragments, not one of the fragments that he was
given matched the weight on record of a 1964 fragment.
Guinn told the HSCA that the Archives assured him that the fragments
they gave him were "the only bullet-lead fragments from this case still
present in the Archives". Guinn stated: "Presumably those are in
existence somewhere..but where they are, I have no idea." He also told
the committee that the wrist fragments would not have been destroyed by
testing in 1964.
To this day, no one knows what happened to the original Connally wrist
fragments. (I HSCA, p. 562)
The implication here is obvious: Sometime between the completion of the
original test in 1964 and the time Dr. Guinn received the fragments
from the National Archives in 1977, the 1964 wrist fragments were
substituted with fragments from CE 399.
In a tape recorded interview in the hallway after his testimony to
HSCA, Dr. Guinn posed the possibility of substitution in explaining why
two different tests resulted in two different conclusions. He said,
"Possibly they would take a bullet, take out a few little pieces and
put it in the container, and say, 'This is what came out of Connally's
wrist'. And naturally, if you compare it with 399, it will look
alike....I have no control over these things."
Which explains why Dr. Guinn concluded that the Connally wrist
fragments and CE 399 were a match, despite the overwhelming evidence to
the contrary and the indication that the fragments that he tested in
1977 were not the original Connally wrist fragments.
He had no control over his conclusions.
MY CONCLUSIONS
I believe that I've made a pretty good case for throwing out CE 399 as
evidence. That's what would have been done to it if it had been
introduced as evidence in any murder case in any court in the US. It's
garbage ! It's manufactured evidence and has no bearing on the
assassination of President Kennedy and the wounding of Governor
Connally.
Even though it contained ballistic markings that matched it to Oswald's
rifle, there is no proof that CE 399 was fired on November 22, 1963.
There is substantial proof, however, that CE 399 was fired at a later
date when the rifle was in the hands of the FBI. CE 399 lacked clothing
fibers from either victim. It lacked blood and bone particles from
either victim. Four eyewitnesses who possessed the stretcher bullet
refused to identify CE 399 as that bullet. The Neutron Activation Test
conducted by the Atomic Energy Commission in 1964 found differences in
the silver and antimony between the Connally wrist fragments and CE
399, proving that CE 399 was NOT the bullet that struck Governor
Connally's wrist. And Dr. Vincent Guinn's test, comparing CE 399 to the
wrist fragments, for the House Select Committee on Assassinations in
1977, is useless because (by his own admission) he did not test the
original wrist fragments.
More significant, is that the above evidence shows that since CE 399
WAS a Western Cartridge bullet, and it didn't match ANY of the
fragments in Connally's wrist, the President's head, or the limousine,
and since Western was the only company that made ammunition for the
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, the evidence also proves that a
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle did not cause ANY of Connally's wounds or
Kennedy's head wound.
All of the above reasons support my theory that CE 399 was not part of
the Kennedy Assassination in any way. It really was the
"Not-So-Magic-Bullet", because it never did anything magical.
In fact, it never did anything at all.
And what's truly funny and ironic, is that LNT'ers are *forced* to accept the
legitimacy of this "evidence". For if they merely accepted what the evidence
shows, they'd be forced to admit that they've been lying to support a lie.

Good synopsis Gil! You won't, I suspect, see any LNT'ers attempting to answer
your points.
Ben Holmes
2006-03-15 14:59:39 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>, Todd W.
Vaughan says...
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Ben Holmes
The examples that the WC produced are available online. Feel free to cite
them... or, if you wish, you may actually *cite* anything else you feel proves
Post by Ben Holmes
your point.
Until that time, you have, as you have in the past, simply lied to make a point.
And when you have to lie to support the "truth", perhaps you need to take a look
at what "truth" you believe is true.
Liar Ben,
You didn't limit this to the WC tests.
You said "...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely
gone through the wrist...has ever been provided."
Have you ever heard of Dr. Martin Fackler?
Todd
Bring him on. Show photos of the bullet, show the bones that it went through,
and the rifle, distance, and velocity.
Physics isn't going to be mocked by a liar the likes of you, Toddy.
Liar-Coward,
You didn't answer the question, did you.
Not directly... but I *did* address your question. I stated: "Bring him on.
Show photos of the bullet, show the bones that it went through, and the rifle,
distance, and velocity."

You cowardly ignored this...
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
You avoided it like a coward.
And strangely enough, when challenged to *provide* the evidence, you squawked
like a coward.

The problem that LNT'ers have is that it doesn't take an expert to point out the
lies they are forced to tell in order to support the silly ideas the WC came up
with...
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
I'll ask again: Have you ever heard of Dr. Martin Fackler?
Yep... another LNT'er... and if I knew him well enough, I could undoubtably
point out where *he's* required to lie as well.

When you actually have the balls to produce the evidence, I'll point out the
flaws.

Until then, the fact remains, that *NO* example of a nearly pristine bullet
exists, that went through bone, duplicating what CE399 is accused of doing.

The WC commissioned attempts to provide exactly this - and failed. Miserably.
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Well, have you?
Todd
Ben Holmes
2006-03-13 23:56:19 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Todd W.
Vaughan says...
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Ben,
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it had
survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed itself. The
shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call it the "magic
bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in evidence had really
done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
And yet, strangely enough, despite all the power of the U.S. Government, no
example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone through the wrist
(let alone a rib...) has ever been provided. In fact, the WC simply refused
to call a ballistics expert that they had commissioned, when he couldn't
validate their theory.
This, of course, since it's so easily documented, Toddy won't touch.
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
"...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone
through the wrist (let alone a rib...) has ever been provided."
And this, even though it's easily documented that the government investigations
were never able to reproduce CE399's condition after merely going through one
bone - Toddy can hang his hat, so to speak, because he can claim that someone
else, (just don't ask who), somewhere, (just don't ask where), actually
reproduced a virtually pristine bullet, after going through... oops... don't ask
*that* either...

You see, the laws of physics will work whether Toddy wants them to or not.
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Lie.
Complete lie.
Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
2006-03-14 18:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
This, of course, since it's so easily documented, Toddy won't touch.
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
"...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely gone
through the wrist (let alone a rib...) has ever been provided."
And this, even though it's easily documented that the government investigations
were never able to reproduce CE399's condition after merely going through one
bone - Toddy can hang his hat, so to speak, because he can claim that someone
else, (just don't ask who), somewhere, (just don't ask where), actually
reproduced a virtually pristine bullet, after going through... oops... don't ask
*that* either...
You see, the laws of physics will work whether Toddy wants them to or not.
Liar Ben,

You didn't limit this to the WC tests.

You said "...no example of a virtually pristine bullet that has merely
gone through the wrist...has ever been provided."

Have you ever heard of Dr. Martin Fackler?

Todd
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-14 04:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
There is no proof that it was the whole bullet in Connally's thigh
rather than just a fragment. On the other hand, that afternoon, one of
the doctors said that there was still a bullet in Connally's thigh which
he might remove later.
Post by WhiskyJoe
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
No problem. One intact bullet could be from Connally. Another intact
bullet could be from Kennedy. Remember that the original conclusion was
that the men were hit by separate bullets. And perhaps an intentional
missed shot would allow them to plant an intact bullet which could be
traced back to Oswald's rifle.
Post by WhiskyJoe
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
They had no guarantee that any fragments recovered would be intact
enough to link to Oswald's rifle. That would be the reason for planting
a bullet, to link the crime to Oswald.
WhiskyJoe
2006-03-14 17:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by WhiskyJoe
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all
they knew, a bullet might still be in Connally's thigh,
or some other part of his body. Were they trying to make
it appear the wounds, which were caused by three bullets,
was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only
caused by two bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't
they be removing bullets, not placing additional bullets?
No problem. One intact bullet could be from Connally.
Another intact bullet could be from Kennedy. Remember that
the original conclusion was that the men were hit by
separate bullets. And perhaps an intentional
missed shot would allow them to plant an intact bullet
which could be traced back to Oswald's rifle.
No problem? Remember, that allegedly, Kennedy and Connally were hit by
separate bullets at around frames 221-235. So that means, as far as the
conspirators know, there may be a bullet in Kennedy's upper back or
neck. Or there may be a bullet that fell onto Kennedy's operating
table. And as far as the conspirators know, there may be a bullet
somewhere in Connally's body. The surgeons may find these two bullets
at any time.

So how does planting a third bullet cause no problem?

Wouldn't swapping bullets make more sense? If a bullet is found, you
swap it out. That way, the number of bullets officially found is not
increased, a desirable goal, I should think, if one is trying to make
it look like all shots were fired by one man with a bolt action rifle.

Wouldn't having all the shooters use the same type of rifle, the same
type of rifle that's going to be planted to implicate the patsy, be a
better idea? That way, at a casual glance, a found bullet will appear
similar to the bullet that is officially stored away. This means one
can swap bullets later, when's it's safer and you don't have to guess
whether more bullets will turn up or not. There is no need to plant
bullets within an hour of the assassination and just hope that things
work out.
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-15 05:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by WhiskyJoe
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by WhiskyJoe
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all
they knew, a bullet might still be in Connally's thigh,
or some other part of his body. Were they trying to make
it appear the wounds, which were caused by three bullets,
was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only
caused by two bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't
they be removing bullets, not placing additional bullets?
No problem. One intact bullet could be from Connally.
Another intact bullet could be from Kennedy. Remember that
the original conclusion was that the men were hit by
separate bullets. And perhaps an intentional
missed shot would allow them to plant an intact bullet
which could be traced back to Oswald's rifle.
No problem? Remember, that allegedly, Kennedy and Connally were hit by
separate bullets at around frames 221-235. So that means, as far as the
Not originally. The FBI did not specify any frame numbers and the WC was
never so specific. They considered it possibly that Kennedy was hit as
early as Z-210 and believed Connally when he said that he was hit at
about Z-230.
Post by WhiskyJoe
conspirators know, there may be a bullet in Kennedy's upper back or
neck. Or there may be a bullet that fell onto Kennedy's operating
No. Using that ammo there can not be a bullet in Kennedy's upper back or
neck.
Post by WhiskyJoe
table. And as far as the conspirators know, there may be a bullet
somewhere in Connally's body. The surgeons may find these two bullets
at any time.
Yes, exactly. There COULD be a bullet in Connally's body. But it might
be so mangled that a ballistics match could not be made, as happened
when the DPD examined the Walker bullet.
Post by WhiskyJoe
So how does planting a third bullet cause no problem?
I never said and certainly I do not think that anyone planted three
bullets. They could plant one bullet to match their intentional miss.
Post by WhiskyJoe
Wouldn't swapping bullets make more sense? If a bullet is found, you
swap it out. That way, the number of bullets officially found is not
increased, a desirable goal, I should think, if one is trying to make
it look like all shots were fired by one man with a bolt action rifle.
They can't rely on controlling the evidence that much.
They still had only 3 bullets found even with a planted bullet.
And if they really get boxed into a corner, they can dream up some
fantasy about one bullet wounding both men.
Post by WhiskyJoe
Wouldn't having all the shooters use the same type of rifle, the same
type of rifle that's going to be planted to implicate the patsy, be a
better idea? That way, at a casual glance, a found bullet will appear
Hmm, I think I said the very same thing. But such ammo can be modified.
Or a very similar type of bullet can be used.
Most people here would not be able to spot the difference between an SMI
bullet and a WCC bullet.
Post by WhiskyJoe
similar to the bullet that is officially stored away. This means one
can swap bullets later, when's it's safer and you don't have to guess
whether more bullets will turn up or not. There is no need to plant
bullets within an hour of the assassination and just hope that things
work out.
Someone else has a theory like that, which I reject.
l***@webtv.net
2006-03-15 07:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Sibert & O'Neill were never asked by their superiors about the huge
insurmountable conflict between the SBT, and their report in the most
important murder of the 20th century.

To believe Oswald acted alone and are relativey familliar with the
evidence, at the very least you have to be one gullible fool.
Tony Szamboti
2006-03-16 03:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it
had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed
itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call
it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in
evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Ben Holmes
2006-03-16 15:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it
had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed
itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call
it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in
evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
They obviously didn't think to assert that by traveling through JFK's neck, the
bullet could lose half of it's speed.

Let's not forget the tree... perhaps a few hundred feet per second could be
shaved off by a convenient branch or leaf.
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-17 00:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it
had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed
itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call
it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in
evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
They obviously didn't think to assert that by traveling through JFK's neck, the
bullet could lose half of it's speed.
What are you talking about? The most velocity the bullet would lose by
going through JFK's neck was about 170 fps, not half of the 2,165 fps
muzzle velocity.
Post by Ben Holmes
Let's not forget the tree... perhaps a few hundred feet per second could be
shaved off by a convenient branch or leaf.
Cute idea. Must be some sturdy leaf. This can be tested and your leaf
idea is nonsense.
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Ben Holmes
2006-03-17 15:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it
had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed
itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call
it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in
evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
They obviously didn't think to assert that by traveling through JFK's neck,
the bullet could lose half of it's speed.
What are you talking about?
Something you are apparently completely unaware of. See Fackler...
Post by Anthony Marsh
The most velocity the bullet would lose by
going through JFK's neck was about 170 fps, not half of the 2,165 fps
muzzle velocity.
Bravo! Now, just convince your LNT'er pals...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Let's not forget the tree... perhaps a few hundred feet per second could be
shaved off by a convenient branch or leaf.
Cute idea. Must be some sturdy leaf. This can be tested and your leaf
idea is nonsense.
Just trying to help out you LNT'ers...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
l***@webtv.net
2006-03-16 15:50:51 UTC
Permalink
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Bud
2006-03-16 21:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed!
They showed doing just that on the show "Beyond the Magic Bullet" on
the Discovery Channel. They fired into a log and recovered pretty
pristine bullet. Of course they fired along the grain, firing against
the grain likely would have destroyed it. Possible the equal pressure
of the woof fiber around the bullet as it travelled may have helped the
bullet to keep it`s shape.

In any case, an open question to the kooks like Ben who demand a
recreation. How do you propose a test to duplicate the effects? I
suspect that the flattening of CE339 was caused by striking Connally`s
rib, likely at an exact broadside so that the energy was transferred
from the whole length of the bullet to an equal part of rib, thus only
causing a slight flattening of the bullet. And of course the bullet
would have lost energy going through Kennedy, but how do you propose to
determine exactly how much? How do the kooks figure it could be redone?
Firing a bullet through one person, the bullet turning so it entered
another sideways and hitting a rib broadside, deflecting out and
hitting a wrist is the offered route. How do the kooks think such a
thing could be duplicated?
Post by l***@webtv.net
We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
tomnln
2006-03-16 23:10:55 UTC
Permalink
Psst hey Bud Psst

TV is designed for "Entertainment".

Some of the stuff on TV is "Fake".

I just Love it when Bud is the "Spokesman" for the LN's (Accessories After
the Fact)
Post by Bud
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed!
They showed doing just that on the show "Beyond the Magic Bullet" on
the Discovery Channel. They fired into a log and recovered pretty
pristine bullet. Of course they fired along the grain, firing against
the grain likely would have destroyed it. Possible the equal pressure
of the woof fiber around the bullet as it travelled may have helped the
bullet to keep it`s shape.
In any case, an open question to the kooks like Ben who demand a
recreation. How do you propose a test to duplicate the effects? I
suspect that the flattening of CE339 was caused by striking Connally`s
rib, likely at an exact broadside so that the energy was transferred
from the whole length of the bullet to an equal part of rib, thus only
causing a slight flattening of the bullet. And of course the bullet
would have lost energy going through Kennedy, but how do you propose to
determine exactly how much? How do the kooks figure it could be redone?
Firing a bullet through one person, the bullet turning so it entered
another sideways and hitting a rib broadside, deflecting out and
hitting a wrist is the offered route. How do the kooks think such a
thing could be duplicated?
Post by l***@webtv.net
We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Bud
2006-03-17 00:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomnln
Psst hey Bud Psst
TV is designed for "Entertainment".
Some of the stuff on TV is "Fake".
So you think that they didn`t fire a bullet into a log and retrieve
a bullet in good shape because this appeared on television? Interesting
theory, kook.
Post by tomnln
I just Love it when Bud is the "Spokesman" for the LN's (Accessories After
the Fact)
Post by Bud
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed!
They showed doing just that on the show "Beyond the Magic Bullet" on
the Discovery Channel. They fired into a log and recovered pretty
pristine bullet. Of course they fired along the grain, firing against
the grain likely would have destroyed it. Possible the equal pressure
of the woof fiber around the bullet as it travelled may have helped the
bullet to keep it`s shape.
In any case, an open question to the kooks like Ben who demand a
recreation. How do you propose a test to duplicate the effects? I
suspect that the flattening of CE339 was caused by striking Connally`s
rib, likely at an exact broadside so that the energy was transferred
from the whole length of the bullet to an equal part of rib, thus only
causing a slight flattening of the bullet. And of course the bullet
would have lost energy going through Kennedy, but how do you propose to
determine exactly how much? How do the kooks figure it could be redone?
Firing a bullet through one person, the bullet turning so it entered
another sideways and hitting a rib broadside, deflecting out and
hitting a wrist is the offered route. How do the kooks think such a
thing could be duplicated?
Post by l***@webtv.net
We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
tomnln
2006-03-17 02:02:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bud
Post by tomnln
Psst hey Bud Psst
TV is designed for "Entertainment".
Some of the stuff on TV is "Fake".
***************************************************************************
Post by Bud
So you think that they didn`t fire a bullet into a log and retrieve
a bullet in good shape because this appeared on television? Interesting
theory, kook.
I have admonished you in the past about the name-calling you AIDS Factory.
****************************************************************************
Post by Bud
Post by tomnln
I just Love it when Bud is the "Spokesman" for the LN's (Accessories After
the Fact)
Post by Bud
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed!
They showed doing just that on the show "Beyond the Magic Bullet" on
the Discovery Channel. They fired into a log and recovered pretty
pristine bullet. Of course they fired along the grain, firing against
the grain likely would have destroyed it. Possible the equal pressure
of the woof fiber around the bullet as it travelled may have helped the
bullet to keep it`s shape.
In any case, an open question to the kooks like Ben who demand a
recreation. How do you propose a test to duplicate the effects? I
suspect that the flattening of CE339 was caused by striking Connally`s
rib, likely at an exact broadside so that the energy was transferred
from the whole length of the bullet to an equal part of rib, thus only
causing a slight flattening of the bullet. And of course the bullet
would have lost energy going through Kennedy, but how do you propose to
determine exactly how much? How do the kooks figure it could be redone?
Firing a bullet through one person, the bullet turning so it entered
another sideways and hitting a rib broadside, deflecting out and
hitting a wrist is the offered route. How do the kooks think such a
thing could be duplicated?
Post by l***@webtv.net
We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
David VP
2006-03-16 23:38:00 UTC
Permalink
The "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program from 2004 is a very impressive
documentary; and it drilled one or two more nails into the CT coffin.

As Ken Rahn recently said -- the more and more time that passes, the
firmer and more solidified the LN/SBT/LHO position becomes...while the
CT side makes no headway whatsoever, with ZERO tests like that of The
Discovery Channel's SBT test being performed to prove the CT side is
correct; nor do we ever see any computer simulations for the CT side to
"prove" their case for conspiracy (a la Dale Myers' exacting animation
project, which, like the Magic Bullet program, goes a long way toward
proving the SBT is a truism).

Several impressive things supporting the overall doability of the SBT
scenario came out of the "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program.....such as
that "log" test mentioned by Bud. The bullet looked absolutely perfect
after being dug out of several feet of wood.

And, of course, the actual SBT re-creation itself....which proved
beyond any doubt that a WCC 6.5mm FMJ M.-C. bullet exactly like CE399
could, indeed, take a very similar path through two "bodies", and then
emerge in pretty decent shape....as we can see here:

Loading Image...

The Discovery Channel test bullet was more damaged than CE399.....but
IMO the test proved a very important thing -- i.e., that a bullet like
Oswald's 399 could go through two bodies, do a lot of damage, and NOT
BE BROKEN UP AT ALL.

The test bullet, just like 399, emerged PERFECTLY WHOLE (i.e., not
fragmented at all). It's all in ONE PIECE. Flattened more than 399,
sure....but certainly not banged all to hell like Dr. Wecht seems to
think a bullet like 399 would HAVE to have been if it went through both
JFK & JBC and caused seven wounds; and remember that the "test" bullet
caused an extra (2nd) rib fracture within the John Connally mock-up
"body" during the re-creation.

The nose portion of the test bullet wasn't flattened at all
either....an important factor, indicating almost certainly it took a
similar path through John Connally's "mock" torso in the test, just as
CE399 most-likely took through JBC's real torso in 1963 -- indicating a
bullet that smashed into most of the hard objects that it hit in a
BACKWARD, END-FIRST manner, thereby keeping the nose undamaged.

And another impressive part of the "Magic Bullet" broadcast was the
ending sequence which had a doctor mistakenly saying that the damage
he's seeing in the X-rays from the re-creation almost certainly must
have been caused "by more than just one bullet".

When proven wrong in this multi-bullet belief, the Los Angeles doctor
was genuinely surprised. (Do CTers think that he's a "CT plant"
too...only feigning "surprise" when confronted with the test results to
further the notion of the SBT?)

All-in-all....that Discovery Channel broadcast did an amazing job at
replicating the damage path and general characteristics of CE399.

The test bullet exited the JFK mock body much lower than the real 399
did in '63, true. I certainly cannot deny this obvious difference. But
we must keep in mind that a PERFECT re-creation can never be fully
achieved, with every single "human" nuance accounted for (since only
mock torsos were utilized in the test).

With some limitations in mind (which apply to CTers and LNers alike,
quite obviously), the re-creations done by the Australian team of JFK
researchers in early October of 2004 are as close to the real event
that I believe we're likely to ever see. And the results most certainly
do not debunk the likelihood of the Single-Bullet Conclusion.....they
enhance that Conclusion greatly.

www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=26254

www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=28318
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-17 00:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David VP
The "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program from 2004 is a very impressive
documentary; and it drilled one or two more nails into the CT coffin.
As Ken Rahn recently said -- the more and more time that passes, the
firmer and more solidified the LN/SBT/LHO position becomes...while the
CT side makes no headway whatsoever, with ZERO tests like that of The
Discovery Channel's SBT test being performed to prove the CT side is
correct; nor do we ever see any computer simulations for the CT side to
"prove" their case for conspiracy (a la Dale Myers' exacting animation
project, which, like the Magic Bullet program, goes a long way toward
proving the SBT is a truism).
Several impressive things supporting the overall doability of the SBT
scenario came out of the "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program.....such as
that "log" test mentioned by Bud. The bullet looked absolutely perfect
after being dug out of several feet of wood.
The problem is that you are a newbie so you are unaware of the facts.
Someone else did that test several years earlier shooting into 47 inches
of Ponderosa Pine. That has never been disputed.
Post by David VP
And, of course, the actual SBT re-creation itself....which proved
beyond any doubt that a WCC 6.5mm FMJ M.-C. bullet exactly like CE399
could, indeed, take a very similar path through two "bodies", and then
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/6735.jpg
The Discovery Channel test bullet was more damaged than CE399.....but
IMO the test proved a very important thing -- i.e., that a bullet like
Oswald's 399 could go through two bodies, do a lot of damage, and NOT
BE BROKEN UP AT ALL.
Which means absolutely nothing.
Post by David VP
The test bullet, just like 399, emerged PERFECTLY WHOLE (i.e., not
fragmented at all). It's all in ONE PIECE. Flattened more than 399,
So what? That does not mean that an intact bullet had to do all the
damage attributed to CE 399.
Post by David VP
sure....but certainly not banged all to hell like Dr. Wecht seems to
think a bullet like 399 would HAVE to have been if it went through both
JFK & JBC and caused seven wounds; and remember that the "test" bullet
caused an extra (2nd) rib fracture within the John Connally mock-up
"body" during the re-creation.
Dr. Wecht did not say that a bullet had to come out banged all to hell.
You are bearing false witness.
Post by David VP
The nose portion of the test bullet wasn't flattened at all
either....an important factor, indicating almost certainly it took a
similar path through John Connally's "mock" torso in the test, just as
CE399 most-likely took through JBC's real torso in 1963 -- indicating a
bullet that smashed into most of the hard objects that it hit in a
BACKWARD, END-FIRST manner, thereby keeping the nose undamaged.
There is no evidence that the bullet which hit Connally was going end
first. And show me where the Discovery Channel's test bullet hit
something going end first.
Post by David VP
And another impressive part of the "Magic Bullet" broadcast was the
ending sequence which had a doctor mistakenly saying that the damage
he's seeing in the X-rays from the re-creation almost certainly must
have been caused "by more than just one bullet".
When proven wrong in this multi-bullet belief, the Los Angeles doctor
was genuinely surprised. (Do CTers think that he's a "CT plant"
too...only feigning "surprise" when confronted with the test results to
further the notion of the SBT?)
The LA doctor was not "proven wrong." They lied to him about the facts.
Post by David VP
All-in-all....that Discovery Channel broadcast did an amazing job at
replicating the damage path and general characteristics of CE399.
Fine propaganda, but far from the truth.
Post by David VP
The test bullet exited the JFK mock body much lower than the real 399
did in '63, true. I certainly cannot deny this obvious difference. But
we must keep in mind that a PERFECT re-creation can never be fully
achieved, with every single "human" nuance accounted for (since only
mock torsos were utilized in the test).
So what if all the entrances and exits were wrong? That wouldn't matter
at all to you. Close enough for a WC defender.
Post by David VP
With some limitations in mind (which apply to CTers and LNers alike,
quite obviously), the re-creations done by the Australian team of JFK
researchers in early October of 2004 are as close to the real event
that I believe we're likely to ever see. And the results most certainly
do not debunk the likelihood of the Single-Bullet Conclusion.....they
enhance that Conclusion greatly.
Well, at least they tried.
Post by David VP
www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=26254
www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=28318
Bud
2006-03-17 01:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
The "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program from 2004 is a very impressive
documentary; and it drilled one or two more nails into the CT coffin.
As Ken Rahn recently said -- the more and more time that passes, the
firmer and more solidified the LN/SBT/LHO position becomes...while the
CT side makes no headway whatsoever, with ZERO tests like that of The
Discovery Channel's SBT test being performed to prove the CT side is
correct; nor do we ever see any computer simulations for the CT side to
"prove" their case for conspiracy (a la Dale Myers' exacting animation
project, which, like the Magic Bullet program, goes a long way toward
proving the SBT is a truism).
Several impressive things supporting the overall doability of the SBT
scenario came out of the "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program.....such as
that "log" test mentioned by Bud. The bullet looked absolutely perfect
after being dug out of several feet of wood.
The problem is that you are a newbie so you are unaware of the facts.
Someone else did that test several years earlier shooting into 47 inches
of Ponderosa Pine.
So in what way does that effect what DavidVP said? He was talking
about the test done on the show, which is unaffected by any other
similar testing.
Post by Anthony Marsh
That has never been disputed.
Stupid thing to say. It was lazuli`s expression of doubt about this
that led to my response, and subsequently David`s expansion on it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
And, of course, the actual SBT re-creation itself....which proved
beyond any doubt that a WCC 6.5mm FMJ M.-C. bullet exactly like CE399
could, indeed, take a very similar path through two "bodies", and then
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/6735.jpg
The Discovery Channel test bullet was more damaged than CE399.....but
IMO the test proved a very important thing -- i.e., that a bullet like
Oswald's 399 could go through two bodies, do a lot of damage, and NOT
BE BROKEN UP AT ALL.
Which means absolutely nothing.
Well, it does show why you kooks will never be able to figure this
thing out. Important information is ignored while irrelevancies are
obsessed over.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
The test bullet, just like 399, emerged PERFECTLY WHOLE (i.e., not
fragmented at all). It's all in ONE PIECE. Flattened more than 399,
So what? That does not mean that an intact bullet had to do all the
damage attributed to CE 399.
We have a bullet, and we have damage. God forbid we try to work
within the existing parameters of that reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
sure....but certainly not banged all to hell like Dr. Wecht seems to
think a bullet like 399 would HAVE to have been if it went through both
JFK & JBC and caused seven wounds; and remember that the "test" bullet
caused an extra (2nd) rib fracture within the John Connally mock-up
"body" during the re-creation.
Dr. Wecht did not say that a bullet had to come out banged all to hell.
You are bearing false witness.
Post by David VP
The nose portion of the test bullet wasn't flattened at all
either....an important factor, indicating almost certainly it took a
similar path through John Connally's "mock" torso in the test, just as
CE399 most-likely took through JBC's real torso in 1963 -- indicating a
bullet that smashed into most of the hard objects that it hit in a
BACKWARD, END-FIRST manner, thereby keeping the nose undamaged.
There is no evidence that the bullet which hit Connally was going end
first. And show me where the Discovery Channel's test bullet hit
something going end first.
Post by David VP
And another impressive part of the "Magic Bullet" broadcast was the
ending sequence which had a doctor mistakenly saying that the damage
he's seeing in the X-rays from the re-creation almost certainly must
have been caused "by more than just one bullet".
When proven wrong in this multi-bullet belief, the Los Angeles doctor
was genuinely surprised. (Do CTers think that he's a "CT plant"
too...only feigning "surprise" when confronted with the test results to
further the notion of the SBT?)
The LA doctor was not "proven wrong." They lied to him about the facts.
They asked him for an opinion as to whether those wounds were made
by one bullet, or two. His opinion was that it would take two bullets
to account for those wounds, when in fact it was only one.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
All-in-all....that Discovery Channel broadcast did an amazing job at
replicating the damage path and general characteristics of CE399.
Fine propaganda, but far from the truth.
Not far.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
The test bullet exited the JFK mock body much lower than the real 399
did in '63, true. I certainly cannot deny this obvious difference. But
we must keep in mind that a PERFECT re-creation can never be fully
achieved, with every single "human" nuance accounted for (since only
mock torsos were utilized in the test).
So what if all the entrances and exits were wrong? That wouldn't matter
at all to you. Close enough for a WC defender.
How could you please kooks? They can`t even agree amongst themselves
about the precise entrances and exits, or even what is an entrance and
what is an exit.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
With some limitations in mind (which apply to CTers and LNers alike,
quite obviously), the re-creations done by the Australian team of JFK
researchers in early October of 2004 are as close to the real event
that I believe we're likely to ever see. And the results most certainly
do not debunk the likelihood of the Single-Bullet Conclusion.....they
enhance that Conclusion greatly.
Well, at least they tried.
They did good.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=26254
www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=28318
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-17 15:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bud
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
The "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program from 2004 is a very impressive
documentary; and it drilled one or two more nails into the CT coffin.
As Ken Rahn recently said -- the more and more time that passes, the
firmer and more solidified the LN/SBT/LHO position becomes...while the
CT side makes no headway whatsoever, with ZERO tests like that of The
Discovery Channel's SBT test being performed to prove the CT side is
correct; nor do we ever see any computer simulations for the CT side to
"prove" their case for conspiracy (a la Dale Myers' exacting animation
project, which, like the Magic Bullet program, goes a long way toward
proving the SBT is a truism).
Several impressive things supporting the overall doability of the SBT
scenario came out of the "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program.....such as
that "log" test mentioned by Bud. The bullet looked absolutely perfect
after being dug out of several feet of wood.
The problem is that you are a newbie so you are unaware of the facts.
Someone else did that test several years earlier shooting into 47 inches
of Ponderosa Pine.
So in what way does that effect what DavidVP said? He was talking
about the test done on the show, which is unaffected by any other
similar testing.
My point was that it was silly to praise the Australians for doing a
test and claim that no one had ever done it before, while not realizing
that it had been done before.
Post by Bud
Post by Anthony Marsh
That has never been disputed.
Stupid thing to say. It was lazuli`s expression of doubt about this
that led to my response, and subsequently David`s expansion on it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
And, of course, the actual SBT re-creation itself....which proved
beyond any doubt that a WCC 6.5mm FMJ M.-C. bullet exactly like CE399
could, indeed, take a very similar path through two "bodies", and then
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/6735.jpg
The Discovery Channel test bullet was more damaged than CE399.....but
IMO the test proved a very important thing -- i.e., that a bullet like
Oswald's 399 could go through two bodies, do a lot of damage, and NOT
BE BROKEN UP AT ALL.
Which means absolutely nothing.
Well, it does show why you kooks will never be able to figure this
thing out. Important information is ignored while irrelevancies are
obsessed over.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
The test bullet, just like 399, emerged PERFECTLY WHOLE (i.e., not
fragmented at all). It's all in ONE PIECE. Flattened more than 399,
So what? That does not mean that an intact bullet had to do all the
damage attributed to CE 399.
We have a bullet, and we have damage. God forbid we try to work
within the existing parameters of that reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
sure....but certainly not banged all to hell like Dr. Wecht seems to
think a bullet like 399 would HAVE to have been if it went through both
JFK & JBC and caused seven wounds; and remember that the "test" bullet
caused an extra (2nd) rib fracture within the John Connally mock-up
"body" during the re-creation.
Dr. Wecht did not say that a bullet had to come out banged all to hell.
You are bearing false witness.
Post by David VP
The nose portion of the test bullet wasn't flattened at all
either....an important factor, indicating almost certainly it took a
similar path through John Connally's "mock" torso in the test, just as
CE399 most-likely took through JBC's real torso in 1963 -- indicating a
bullet that smashed into most of the hard objects that it hit in a
BACKWARD, END-FIRST manner, thereby keeping the nose undamaged.
There is no evidence that the bullet which hit Connally was going end
first. And show me where the Discovery Channel's test bullet hit
something going end first.
Post by David VP
And another impressive part of the "Magic Bullet" broadcast was the
ending sequence which had a doctor mistakenly saying that the damage
he's seeing in the X-rays from the re-creation almost certainly must
have been caused "by more than just one bullet".
When proven wrong in this multi-bullet belief, the Los Angeles doctor
was genuinely surprised. (Do CTers think that he's a "CT plant"
too...only feigning "surprise" when confronted with the test results to
further the notion of the SBT?)
The LA doctor was not "proven wrong." They lied to him about the facts.
They asked him for an opinion as to whether those wounds were made
by one bullet, or two. His opinion was that it would take two bullets
to account for those wounds, when in fact it was only one.
Given the incorrect data that was handed to him. If I gave you an
autopsy report that stated that there were hundreds of wounds from
several different calibers to the body, you might automatically conclude
that it had to be a conspiracy. If you later learned that there was only
one wound and it was close contact you'd realize that you'd been duped.
Post by Bud
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
All-in-all....that Discovery Channel broadcast did an amazing job at
replicating the damage path and general characteristics of CE399.
Fine propaganda, but far from the truth.
Not far.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
The test bullet exited the JFK mock body much lower than the real 399
did in '63, true. I certainly cannot deny this obvious difference. But
we must keep in mind that a PERFECT re-creation can never be fully
achieved, with every single "human" nuance accounted for (since only
mock torsos were utilized in the test).
So what if all the entrances and exits were wrong? That wouldn't matter
at all to you. Close enough for a WC defender.
How could you please kooks? They can`t even agree amongst themselves
about the precise entrances and exits, or even what is an entrance and
what is an exit.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
With some limitations in mind (which apply to CTers and LNers alike,
quite obviously), the re-creations done by the Australian team of JFK
researchers in early October of 2004 are as close to the real event
that I believe we're likely to ever see. And the results most certainly
do not debunk the likelihood of the Single-Bullet Conclusion.....they
enhance that Conclusion greatly.
Well, at least they tried.
They did good.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David VP
www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=26254
www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=28318
Ben Holmes
2006-03-17 00:50:51 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, David VP
says...
Post by David VP
The "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program from 2004 is a very impressive
documentary; and it drilled one or two more nails into the CT coffin.
Don't recall it... but I'd be amazed if they've been able to change physics.
Post by David VP
As Ken Rahn recently said
Who *cares* what he says? He's too cowardly to support *HIS OWN WORDS* on this
newsgroup... and anyone who's willing to lie to support a position really needs
to take a better look at his position.
Post by David VP
-- the more and more time that passes, the
firmer and more solidified the LN/SBT/LHO position becomes...
And this is why he won't dare state that here. It's simply wrong and
unsupportable. As time goes on, more and more information about what *really*
happened has come out. And it's *not* been in favor of the silly LNT'er
position.
Post by David VP
while the
CT side makes no headway whatsoever, with ZERO tests like that of The
Discovery Channel's SBT test being performed to prove the CT side is
correct;
Performed by the WC back in 1964.


And still unanswered, despite recent claims to the contrary.
Post by David VP
nor do we ever see any computer simulations for the CT side to
"prove" their case for conspiracy (a la Dale Myers' exacting animation
project, which, like the Magic Bullet program, goes a long way toward
proving the SBT is a truism).
The flaws are evident to anyone with the facts at their fingertips. GIGO.
Post by David VP
Several impressive things supporting the overall doability of the SBT
scenario came out of the "Beyond The Magic Bullet" program.....such as
that "log" test mentioned by Bud. The bullet looked absolutely perfect
after being dug out of several feet of wood.
How silly! Human bone is harder than wood. Even wood has a wide range of
hardness, depending on the wood. Balsa isn't going to be in the same league as
Oak, for example. Why not deal with facts?
Post by David VP
And, of course, the actual SBT re-creation itself....which proved
beyond any doubt that a WCC 6.5mm FMJ M.-C. bullet exactly like CE399
could, indeed, take a very similar path through two "bodies", and then
Never seen any such presentation. In fact, one presentation I saw, the bullet
flopped out of the second "body" with no power left to shatter the wrist and
enter the leg.
Post by David VP
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/6735.jpg
The Discovery Channel test bullet was more damaged than CE399.....but
IMO the test proved a very important thing -- i.e., that a bullet like
Oswald's 399 could go through two bodies, do a lot of damage, and NOT
BE BROKEN UP AT ALL.
LNT'ers can be easily "convinced", as long as it's convincing them of something
they already believed.
Post by David VP
The test bullet, just like 399, emerged PERFECTLY WHOLE (i.e., not
fragmented at all). It's all in ONE PIECE. Flattened more than 399,
sure....but certainly not banged all to hell like Dr. Wecht seems to
think
And the WC... the tests that *they* commissioned showed *exactly* what virtually
all the doctors involved testified to. That CE399 couldn't have done what the
WC proposed it did - due to the lack of damage seen.
Post by David VP
a bullet like 399 would HAVE to have been if it went through both
JFK & JBC and caused seven wounds; and remember that the "test" bullet
caused an extra (2nd) rib fracture within the John Connally mock-up
"body" during the re-creation.
The nose portion of the test bullet wasn't flattened at all
either....an important factor, indicating almost certainly it took a
similar path through John Connally's "mock" torso in the test, just as
CE399 most-likely took through JBC's real torso in 1963 -- indicating a
bullet that smashed into most of the hard objects that it hit in a
BACKWARD, END-FIRST manner, thereby keeping the nose undamaged.
Then, of course, the *end* would have been smashed.
Post by David VP
And another impressive part of the "Magic Bullet" broadcast was the
ending sequence which had a doctor mistakenly saying that the damage
he's seeing in the X-rays from the re-creation almost certainly must
have been caused "by more than just one bullet".
When proven wrong in this multi-bullet belief, the Los Angeles doctor
was genuinely surprised. (Do CTers think that he's a "CT plant"
too...only feigning "surprise" when confronted with the test results to
further the notion of the SBT?)
All-in-all....that Discovery Channel broadcast did an amazing job at
replicating the damage path and general characteristics of CE399.
I doubt it...

If it's the same program I saw, I *KNOW* it didn't. It clearly showed that a
bullet going through two bodies *WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SMASH THE WRIST*. It had
no velocity left.
Post by David VP
The test bullet exited the JFK mock body much lower than the real 399
did in '63, true. I certainly cannot deny this obvious difference. But
we must keep in mind that a PERFECT re-creation can never be fully
achieved, with every single "human" nuance accounted for (since only
mock torsos were utilized in the test).
With some limitations in mind (which apply to CTers and LNers alike,
quite obviously), the re-creations done by the Australian team of JFK
researchers in early October of 2004 are as close to the real event
that I believe we're likely to ever see.
That *LNT'ers* are ever likely to see... tis true. That was about as good an
effort as could be made, and the fact that it *disproved* the asserted path of
CE399 doesn't seem to cross your mind.

No-one has ever doubted that a bullet can go through two people. And, in fact,
it's even possible that it may have (*partially*!) happened here - although the
evidence is against it.

And *that* is the major problem you have... the *evidence* is against it.

Can you, for example, explain why the closest police eyewitness to the murder
was never questioned by the WC or FBI prior to the release of the WCR?

Could it possibly be that his testimony would *demolish* the necessary SBT?

There has certainly never been a coherent LNT'er response to this...
Post by David VP
And the results most certainly
do not debunk the likelihood of the Single-Bullet Conclusion.....they
enhance that Conclusion greatly.
Of *course* the results debunked the SBT. They support what everyone knows,
that a bullet can go through two people... but the test *I* saw showed that the
bullet didn't have enough power to go on to smash a wrist. That this doesn't
deter your belief is nothing more than expected, however.
Post by David VP
www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=26254
www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=28318
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-17 00:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bud
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed!
They showed doing just that on the show "Beyond the Magic Bullet" on
the Discovery Channel. They fired into a log and recovered pretty
pristine bullet. Of course they fired along the grain, firing against
the grain likely would have destroyed it. Possible the equal pressure
of the woof fiber around the bullet as it travelled may have helped the
bullet to keep it`s shape.
If you think so, then why don't you test that idea?
Seems that neither you nor he was aware of the previous test by Nichols
firing a WCC M-C bullet through 47 inches of Ponderosa Pine and the
bullet was in perfect condition.
Post by Bud
In any case, an open question to the kooks like Ben who demand a
recreation. How do you propose a test to duplicate the effects? I
suspect that the flattening of CE339 was caused by striking Connally`s
rib, likely at an exact broadside so that the energy was transferred
from the whole length of the bullet to an equal part of rib, thus only
causing a slight flattening of the bullet. And of course the bullet
would have lost energy going through Kennedy, but how do you propose to
Why do you assume that the bullet had to go through Kennedy first?
Exactly how many fps would such a bullet lose if it went through
Kennedy's neck?
Post by Bud
determine exactly how much? How do the kooks figure it could be redone?
Firing a bullet through one person, the bullet turning so it entered
another sideways and hitting a rib broadside, deflecting out and
hitting a wrist is the offered route. How do the kooks think such a
thing could be duplicated?
Isn't that exactly what you think was duplicated by the Australians?
Post by Bud
Post by l***@webtv.net
We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Bud
2006-03-17 01:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bud
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed!
They showed doing just that on the show "Beyond the Magic Bullet" on
the Discovery Channel. They fired into a log and recovered pretty
pristine bullet. Of course they fired along the grain, firing against
the grain likely would have destroyed it. Possible the equal pressure
of the woof fiber around the bullet as it travelled may have helped the
bullet to keep it`s shape.
If you think so, then why don't you test that idea?
<snicker>
Post by Anthony Marsh
Seems that neither you nor he was aware of the previous test by Nichols
firing a WCC M-C bullet through 47 inches of Ponderosa Pine and the
bullet was in perfect condition.
Post by Bud
In any case, an open question to the kooks like Ben who demand a
recreation. How do you propose a test to duplicate the effects? I
suspect that the flattening of CE339 was caused by striking Connally`s
rib, likely at an exact broadside so that the energy was transferred
from the whole length of the bullet to an equal part of rib, thus only
causing a slight flattening of the bullet. And of course the bullet
would have lost energy going through Kennedy, but how do you propose to
Why do you assume that the bullet had to go through Kennedy first?
Circumstances dictate.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Exactly how many fps would such a bullet lose if it went through
Kennedy's neck?
That, kook, is the right question. One of several of which need
precise answers to before a true duplication could be performed.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bud
determine exactly how much? How do the kooks figure it could be redone?
Firing a bullet through one person, the bullet turning so it entered
another sideways and hitting a rib broadside, deflecting out and
hitting a wrist is the offered route. How do the kooks think such a
thing could be duplicated?
Isn't that exactly what you think was duplicated by the Australians?
No, it wasn`t a duplication. A duplication is what kooks are calling
for. I was just wondering how they propose such a thing could be done.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bud
Post by l***@webtv.net
We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-17 00:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Ben Holmes
2006-03-17 15:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-17 23:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Ben Holmes
2006-03-18 00:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.

My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
--
http://NewsGuy.com/overview.htm 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-19 01:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.
Google Groups.
Post by Ben Holmes
My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
Ben Holmes
2006-03-19 06:22:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.
Google Groups.
Yep... I didn't think you could. Coward *and* a liar, aren't you?

As any lurker can rapidly duplicate, there are only *15* threads in this
newsgroup that Tony has posted in, where the words "bone" and "wood" are both
used. And in only *one* of those posts is the fact that bone is harder than
wood mentioned, and that happened, by interesting coincidence, to be *MY*
statement. ("... pine is a relatively soft wood, and doesn't even come close to
the resistance offered by human bone.")

You're a yellow-bellied liar, Tony. You've *NEVER* asserted in the newsgroups
that bone is harder than wood.

But that won't surprise people who've watched you squirm and lie for so many
years...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
--
http://NewsGuy.com/overview.htm 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-19 22:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.
Google Groups.
Yep... I didn't think you could. Coward *and* a liar, aren't you?
As any lurker can rapidly duplicate, there are only *15* threads in this
newsgroup that Tony has posted in, where the words "bone" and "wood" are both
used. And in only *one* of those posts is the fact that bone is harder than
wood mentioned, and that happened, by interesting coincidence, to be *MY*
statement. ("... pine is a relatively soft wood, and doesn't even come close to
the resistance offered by human bone.")
More lies from the lie master. I said that I have discussed this before
and the current 15 threads are not the only times. Several times in the
past in old threads.
Post by Ben Holmes
You're a yellow-bellied liar, Tony. You've *NEVER* asserted in the newsgroups
that bone is harder than wood.
Several times.
Post by Ben Holmes
He doesn't seem to understand that bone is both
denser and stronger than wood (a chunk of Ponderosa pine floats, while
bone is twice as dense as water) and that the greater density produces
AM: And the length of the wood is much greater than the width of the bone.
Post by Ben Holmes
But that won't surprise people who've watched you squirm and lie for so many
years...
The only liar in this thread is YOU.
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
tomnln
2006-03-20 01:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Looks like I an NOT the Only Conspiracy Believer who recognizes a WCR
Supporter.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols
fired a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47
inches in perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.
Google Groups.
Yep... I didn't think you could. Coward *and* a liar, aren't you?
As any lurker can rapidly duplicate, there are only *15* threads in this
newsgroup that Tony has posted in, where the words "bone" and "wood" are both
used. And in only *one* of those posts is the fact that bone is harder than
wood mentioned, and that happened, by interesting coincidence, to be *MY*
statement. ("... pine is a relatively soft wood, and doesn't even come close to
the resistance offered by human bone.")
More lies from the lie master. I said that I have discussed this before
and the current 15 threads are not the only times. Several times in the
past in old threads.
Post by Ben Holmes
You're a yellow-bellied liar, Tony. You've *NEVER* asserted in the newsgroups
that bone is harder than wood.
Several times.
Post by Ben Holmes
He doesn't seem to understand that bone is both
denser and stronger than wood (a chunk of Ponderosa pine floats, while
bone is twice as dense as water) and that the greater density produces
AM: And the length of the wood is much greater than the width of the bone.
Post by Ben Holmes
But that won't surprise people who've watched you squirm and lie for so many
years...
The only liar in this thread is YOU.
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
Todd W. Vaughan
2006-03-20 02:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Tomnln,
Post by tomnln
Looks like I an NOT the Only Conspiracy Believer who recognizes a WCR
Supporter.
Still on this weekend's bender, huh?

You accuse "WCR Supporters" of lying, when your very own web site
contains your own lies.

You're one hell of a hypocrite, LIAR ROSSLEY.

Todd
tomnln
2006-03-20 04:52:53 UTC
Permalink
toddy toddy toddy

You are Religiously "Dedicated" to lies that are Felonies, I thought you
would love them.

But, then Again toddy.
You were NEVER concerned with Truth/Justice.

Your Real goal is to attack Anyone who can prove your friends are FELONS.
(you know, YOUR kind of people)
(you know, YOUR friends who Destroyed Evidence)

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeey Is someone Paying you for making a Fool of your self?
(What did Inflation do to 30 pieces of Silver toddy?)
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Tomnln,
Post by tomnln
Looks like I an NOT the Only Conspiracy Believer who recognizes a WCR
Supporter.
Still on this weekend's bender, huh?
You accuse "WCR Supporters" of lying, when your very own web site
contains your own lies.
You're one hell of a hypocrite, LIAR ROSSLEY.
Todd
Ben Holmes
2006-03-20 15:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.
Google Groups.
Yep... I didn't think you could. Coward *and* a liar, aren't you?
As any lurker can rapidly duplicate, there are only *15* threads in this
newsgroup that Tony has posted in, where the words "bone" and "wood" are both
used. And in only *one* of those posts is the fact that bone is harder than
wood mentioned, and that happened, by interesting coincidence, to be *MY*
statement. ("... pine is a relatively soft wood, and doesn't even come close to
the resistance offered by human bone.")
More lies from the lie master. I said that I have discussed this before
and the current 15 threads are not the only times. Several times in the
past in old threads.
Post by Ben Holmes
You're a yellow-bellied liar, Tony. You've *NEVER* asserted in the
newsgroups that bone is harder than wood.
Several times.
Yet Tony won't dare cite them.

Liar...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
He doesn't seem to understand that bone is both
denser and stronger than wood (a chunk of Ponderosa pine floats, while
bone is twice as dense as water) and that the greater density produces
AM: And the length of the wood is much greater than the width of the bone.
The best you can do comes from ANOTHER NEWSGROUP!! Rather sad, Tony. You're a
yellow-bellied liar
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
But that won't surprise people who've watched you squirm and lie for so many
years...
The only liar in this thread is YOU.
I hope you don't honestly think Lurkers think that...

Self-delusion is dangerous...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
--
http://NewsGuy.com/overview.htm 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-20 23:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.
Google Groups.
Yep... I didn't think you could. Coward *and* a liar, aren't you?
As any lurker can rapidly duplicate, there are only *15* threads in this
newsgroup that Tony has posted in, where the words "bone" and "wood" are both
used. And in only *one* of those posts is the fact that bone is harder than
wood mentioned, and that happened, by interesting coincidence, to be *MY*
statement. ("... pine is a relatively soft wood, and doesn't even come close to
the resistance offered by human bone.")
More lies from the lie master. I said that I have discussed this before
and the current 15 threads are not the only times. Several times in the
past in old threads.
Post by Ben Holmes
You're a yellow-bellied liar, Tony. You've *NEVER* asserted in the
newsgroups that bone is harder than wood.
Several times.
Yet Tony won't dare cite them.
Just did.
Post by Ben Holmes
Liar...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
He doesn't seem to understand that bone is both
denser and stronger than wood (a chunk of Ponderosa pine floats, while
bone is twice as dense as water) and that the greater density produces
AM: And the length of the wood is much greater than the width of the bone.
The best you can do comes from ANOTHER NEWSGROUP!! Rather sad, Tony. You're a
yellow-bellied liar
I never said which newsgroup and you challenge dealt with newsgroups
plural. I have also discussed it in person with other researchers at
conferences.
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
But that won't surprise people who've watched you squirm and lie for so many
years...
The only liar in this thread is YOU.
I hope you don't honestly think Lurkers think that...
Self-delusion is dangerous...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
Ben Holmes
2006-03-21 14:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.
Google Groups.
Yep... I didn't think you could. Coward *and* a liar, aren't you?
As any lurker can rapidly duplicate, there are only *15* threads in this
newsgroup that Tony has posted in, where the words "bone" and "wood" are both
used. And in only *one* of those posts is the fact that bone is harder than
wood mentioned, and that happened, by interesting coincidence, to be *MY*
statement. ("... pine is a relatively soft wood, and doesn't even come close to
the resistance offered by human bone.")
More lies from the lie master. I said that I have discussed this before
and the current 15 threads are not the only times. Several times in the
past in old threads.
Post by Ben Holmes
You're a yellow-bellied liar, Tony. You've *NEVER* asserted in the
newsgroups that bone is harder than wood.
Several times.
Yet Tony won't dare cite them.
Just did.
"Several times." means several cites. You can't do it. And you *CERTAINLY*
can't do it from this newsgroup. You were forced to go outside this group to
come up with anything.

Liar, aren't you?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Liar...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
He doesn't seem to understand that bone is both
denser and stronger than wood (a chunk of Ponderosa pine floats, while
bone is twice as dense as water) and that the greater density produces
AM: And the length of the wood is much greater than the width of the bone.
The best you can do comes from ANOTHER NEWSGROUP!! Rather sad, Tony. You're a
yellow-bellied liar
I never said which newsgroup and you challenge dealt with newsgroups
plural. I have also discussed it in person with other researchers at
conferences.
Liar, aren't you?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
But that won't surprise people who've watched you squirm and lie for so many
years...
The only liar in this thread is YOU.
I hope you don't honestly think Lurkers think that...
Self-delusion is dangerous...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-21 22:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.
Google Groups.
Yep... I didn't think you could. Coward *and* a liar, aren't you?
As any lurker can rapidly duplicate, there are only *15* threads in this
newsgroup that Tony has posted in, where the words "bone" and "wood" are both
used. And in only *one* of those posts is the fact that bone is harder than
wood mentioned, and that happened, by interesting coincidence, to be *MY*
statement. ("... pine is a relatively soft wood, and doesn't even come close to
the resistance offered by human bone.")
More lies from the lie master. I said that I have discussed this before
and the current 15 threads are not the only times. Several times in the
past in old threads.
Post by Ben Holmes
You're a yellow-bellied liar, Tony. You've *NEVER* asserted in the
newsgroups that bone is harder than wood.
Several times.
Yet Tony won't dare cite them.
Just did.
"Several times." means several cites. You can't do it. And you *CERTAINLY*
can't do it from this newsgroup. You were forced to go outside this group to
come up with anything.
You asked for just one cite. I provided it, then your only way out was
to complain that it came from another newsgroup. But you never specified
just this newsgroup.
Post by Ben Holmes
Liar, aren't you?
Stupid, aren't you?
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Liar...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
He doesn't seem to understand that bone is both
denser and stronger than wood (a chunk of Ponderosa pine floats, while
bone is twice as dense as water) and that the greater density produces
AM: And the length of the wood is much greater than the width of the bone.
The best you can do comes from ANOTHER NEWSGROUP!! Rather sad, Tony. You're a
yellow-bellied liar
I never said which newsgroup and you challenge dealt with newsgroups
plural. I have also discussed it in person with other researchers at
conferences.
Liar, aren't you?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
But that won't surprise people who've watched you squirm and lie for so many
years...
The only liar in this thread is YOU.
I hope you don't honestly think Lurkers think that...
Self-delusion is dangerous...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
Ben Holmes
2006-03-22 15:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by l***@webtv.net
I have never believed the b.s. that an MC bullet could penetrate 3 1/2
FEET of log, much less remain unscathed! We're not talkin' armor
piercing ammo here. I've seen FMJ rounds fired into tree trunks of a
foot or so in diameter and not one has ever penetrated the entire tree!
So let's get real about the true penetration capabilities of CE 399.
Then you've never bothered to do the test yourself. So you have very
little real world experience to base your opinion on. Dr. Nichols fired
a WCC M-C bullet into a Ponderosa Pine and it penetrated 47 inches in
perfect condition.
Of course, Tony won't bother to mention that bone is much harder than wood.
This argument *sounds* impressive... but knowing the facts make it rather
unimportant.
Only the fact that I have mentioned it about 100 times. That is what I
mean by my statement that the same bullet can come out in different
conditions depending on different circumstances.
Feel free to cite merely *ONE* instance of you asserting that bone is harder
than wood. Just *ONE*.
Google Groups.
Yep... I didn't think you could. Coward *and* a liar, aren't you?
As any lurker can rapidly duplicate, there are only *15* threads in this
newsgroup that Tony has posted in, where the words "bone" and "wood" are both
used. And in only *one* of those posts is the fact that bone is harder than
wood mentioned, and that happened, by interesting coincidence, to be *MY*
statement. ("... pine is a relatively soft wood, and doesn't even come close to
the resistance offered by human bone.")
More lies from the lie master. I said that I have discussed this before
and the current 15 threads are not the only times. Several times in the
past in old threads.
Post by Ben Holmes
You're a yellow-bellied liar, Tony. You've *NEVER* asserted in the
newsgroups that bone is harder than wood.
Several times.
Yet Tony won't dare cite them.
Just did.
"Several times." means several cites. You can't do it. And you *CERTAINLY*
can't do it from this newsgroup. You were forced to go outside this group to
come up with anything.
You asked for just one cite. I provided it, then your only way out was
to complain that it came from another newsgroup. But you never specified
just this newsgroup.
Liar, aren't you?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Liar, aren't you?
Stupid, aren't you?
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Liar...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
He doesn't seem to understand that bone is both
denser and stronger than wood (a chunk of Ponderosa pine floats, while
bone is twice as dense as water) and that the greater density produces
AM: And the length of the wood is much greater than the width of the bone.
The best you can do comes from ANOTHER NEWSGROUP!! Rather sad, Tony. You're a
yellow-bellied liar
I never said which newsgroup and you challenge dealt with newsgroups
plural. I have also discussed it in person with other researchers at
conferences.
Liar, aren't you?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
But that won't surprise people who've watched you squirm and lie for so many
years...
The only liar in this thread is YOU.
I hope you don't honestly think Lurkers think that...
Self-delusion is dangerous...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
My crystal ball tells me that I'd better not hold my breath.
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-17 02:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it
had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed
itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call
it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in
evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Ben Holmes
2006-03-17 15:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it
had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed
itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call
it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in
evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
Tony's unstated implication that CE399 *could* have done what the WC asserted
for it is silly, of course. As is the idea that this round could have shattered
a rib and smashed a wrist without *massively* more damage to the round.

Come on, Tony... let's hear some honesty for a change...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
tomnln
2006-03-17 21:01:31 UTC
Permalink
MIDDLE POST;
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it
had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed
itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call
it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in
evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
Tony's unstated implication that CE399 *could* have done what the WC asserted
for it is silly, of course. As is the idea that this round could have shattered
a rib and smashed a wrist without *massively* more damage to the round.
=====================================================================
Post by Ben Holmes
Come on, Tony... let's hear some honesty for a change...
SORRY ! ! ! Wrong Number.
=====================================================================
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-17 23:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it
had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed
itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call
it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in
evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
Tony's unstated implication that CE399 *could* have done what the WC asserted
for it is silly, of course. As is the idea that this round could have shattered
a rib and smashed a wrist without *massively* more damage to the round.
Fuck you AND your implications. All you are doing is lying about what I
have said. I have always said that some type of SBT is theoretically
possible, but no one has yet described one which works.
Maybe CE 399 is genuine, but did not do what the WC said it did.
Post by Ben Holmes
Come on, Tony... let's hear some honesty for a change...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Ben Holmes
2006-03-18 00:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ben Holmes
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar feature: it
had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually unscathed
itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted some to call
it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering whether the bullet in
evidence had really done what the Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
Tony's unstated implication that CE399 *could* have done what the WC
asserted for it is silly, of course. As is the idea that this round
could have shattered a rib and smashed a wrist without *massively* more
damage to the round.
Fuck you AND your implications.
That says it all...
Post by Anthony Marsh
All you are doing is lying about what I
have said.
It's right there above, unsnipped, available to all lurkers to judge for
themselves...
Post by Anthony Marsh
I have always said
Not above, you didn't. I corrected the record...
Post by Anthony Marsh
that some type of SBT is theoretically
possible, but no one has yet described one which works.
Maybe CE 399 is genuine,
Doubtful... the evidence is against it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
but did not do what the WC said it did.
Post by Ben Holmes
Come on, Tony... let's hear some honesty for a change...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
--
http://NewsGuy.com/overview.htm 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Tony Szamboti
2006-03-18 03:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually
unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted
some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering
whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the Commission had
said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME! Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Ben Holmes
2006-03-18 19:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually
unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted
some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering
whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the Commission had
said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME!
Well stated. And this cannot be disputed by LNT'ers without at least a wee bit
of dishonesty.
Post by Tony Szamboti
Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
It's simple, really... Tony's a liar. 'A wolf in sheep's clothing' comes to
mind.
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
--
http://NewsGuy.com/overview.htm 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-19 01:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually
unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted
some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering
whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the Commission had
said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
You can assume that, but I am not sure that you can prove that. What if
the bullet hit the bone at an angle rather than perpendicularly?
Post by Tony Szamboti
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
When it comes to bullets, you can never say everytime.
Post by Tony Szamboti
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME! Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
Of course things can be determinable. By experimentation. How come you
never offer to participate in the experiments? Are you afraid that the
cheap Mannlicher-Carcano will blow up in your face as it has to other
experimenters? Always wear your safety glasses.
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's clothes
and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had ever
lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Tony Szamboti
2006-03-19 22:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar
feature: it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused
virtually unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance,
which prompted some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics
wondering whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the
Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren
Commission couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of
cadavers without being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
You can assume that, but I am not sure that you can prove that. What if
the bullet hit the bone at an angle rather than perpendicularly?
I am not assuming anything. I can prove it. Even if the bullet hits the bone
at an angle the forces required to smash Connally's radius bone had to be
reacted by the bullet. Bottom line is that the bullet provided enough force
to smash Connally's radius bone. The reaction force on the bullet would
mushroom the bullet. Angles only change the component direction they don't
change the total force involved. The force required to cause the injury to
the bone, that we see in the x-rays, no matter what angle it strikes at, is
the reason for the necessary deformation of the bullet. Doctors Shaw and
Gregory both had problems with CE399 due to their belief that there would
have had to have been more deformation to the actual bullet that caused that
wrist wound. In their case it was probably an assumption because they were
doctors not trained in material science and stress analysis. However their
assumption was correct and I am a trained mechanical engineer who knows the
strength of the bone and the bullet and can calculate the force required to
smash that bone the way it was and then do a stress analysis on the bullet
due to the reaction force. The bullet has to mushroom EVERYTIME if it caused
the bone wound we see in the x-rays of Connally's wrist! It could be a
slightly differnt deformation or the bullet could be bent signifantly if it
hit it more from the side but it will never look like CE399. The Warren
Commission's own test, which resulted in CE856 proved this! Why don't you
see that?

There is no free ride and since CE399 had nowhere near the amount of
deformation a force and stress analysis says the bullet, which caused the
wrist wound, should have had it could not be the bullet that smashed John
Connally's radius bone. CE399 certainly looks just like bullets that have
only been fired into a cotton tube or water tank for obtaining
rifling/ballistics information to match them to the weapon they were fired
from.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
When it comes to bullets, you can never say everytime.
Post by Tony Szamboti
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME! Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
Of course things can be determinable. By experimentation. How come you
never offer to participate in the experiments? Are you afraid that the
cheap Mannlicher-Carcano will blow up in your face as it has to other
experimenters? Always wear your safety glasses.
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's
clothes and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had
ever lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-21 03:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
But the bullet that was recovered had one strikingly peculiar
feature: it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused
virtually unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance,
which prompted some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics
wondering whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the
Commission had said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren
Commission couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of
cadavers without being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
You can assume that, but I am not sure that you can prove that. What if
the bullet hit the bone at an angle rather than perpendicularly?
I am not assuming anything. I can prove it. Even if the bullet hits the bone
at an angle the forces required to smash Connally's radius bone had to be
reacted by the bullet. Bottom line is that the bullet provided enough force
Yes, I think it was. Deformed the bullet. This can be tested. Why are
you not interested in testing this yourself?
Post by Tony Szamboti
to smash Connally's radius bone. The reaction force on the bullet would
mushroom the bullet. Angles only change the component direction they don't
Not necessarily. There are several variables involved. Maybe the bullet
went through Connally's torso first, dramatically slowing it down.
Post by Tony Szamboti
change the total force involved. The force required to cause the injury to
the bone, that we see in the x-rays, no matter what angle it strikes at, is
the reason for the necessary deformation of the bullet. Doctors Shaw and
Gregory both had problems with CE399 due to their belief that there would
have had to have been more deformation to the actual bullet that caused that
wrist wound. In their case it was probably an assumption because they were
That's fine, but they were not wound ballistics experts, as they admitted.
Post by Tony Szamboti
doctors not trained in material science and stress analysis. However their
assumption was correct and I am a trained mechanical engineer who knows the
strength of the bone and the bullet and can calculate the force required to
smash that bone the way it was and then do a stress analysis on the bullet
We are not talking about theory here. We are talking about real world
conditions. This can be tested.
Post by Tony Szamboti
due to the reaction force. The bullet has to mushroom EVERYTIME if it caused
the bone wound we see in the x-rays of Connally's wrist! It could be a
Well, I may personally believe that the bullet would not mushroom, but
breaking into several pieces. This can be tested.
Post by Tony Szamboti
slightly differnt deformation or the bullet could be bent signifantly if it
hit it more from the side but it will never look like CE399. The Warren
Commission's own test, which resulted in CE856 proved this! Why don't you
see that?
I do not believe CE 399 did what the WC alleged. But it could still be
genuine.
Post by Tony Szamboti
There is no free ride and since CE399 had nowhere near the amount of
deformation a force and stress analysis says the bullet, which caused the
wrist wound, should have had it could not be the bullet that smashed John
Connally's radius bone. CE399 certainly looks just like bullets that have
only been fired into a cotton tube or water tank for obtaining
rifling/ballistics information to match them to the weapon they were fired
from.
Sure, but at what point? Maybe when it was found it looked much less
deformed.
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
When it comes to bullets, you can never say everytime.
Post by Tony Szamboti
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME! Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
Of course things can be determinable. By experimentation. How come you
never offer to participate in the experiments? Are you afraid that the
cheap Mannlicher-Carcano will blow up in your face as it has to other
experimenters? Always wear your safety glasses.
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
Mr. Specter's idea was that, after passing completely through JFK and
Governor Connally, the bullet had fallen out of the Governor's
clothes and onto a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Specter was not the first to think of this possibility. The first
one was Connally's surgeon, working on him on the afternoon of November
22. He noticed a very shallow wound in Connally's thigh. He noted that
there was no bullet in the wound. He surmised that the bullet must of
fallen out of the wound. He told the nurses to check the clothes for
the bullet. As it turned out, the bullet worked it's way out of the
wound, and fell unnoticed onto the stretcher.
And why would conspirators plant a bullet when for all they knew, a
bullet might still be in Connally's thigh, or some other part of his
body. Were they trying to make it appear the wounds, which were caused
by three bullets, was actually caused by four bullets? I thought the
idea was to make it appear that the wounds were only caused by two
bullets. If this is the case, shouldn't they be removing bullets, not
placing additional bullets?
But it was never unequivocally established that either victim had
ever lain on the stretcher where the bullet was discovered.
Again, why would the conspirators be placing additional bullets? Does
this make sense to anyone out there (who isn't really out there)?
Todd W. Vaughan
2006-03-19 19:50:31 UTC
Permalink
Tony,
Post by Tony Szamboti
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME! Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
I'm curious, exactly what do you mean by "if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically".

What is it about JBC''s x-ray that tells you anything about how the bullet
was deformed?

Todd
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-20 05:38:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Tony,
Post by Tony Szamboti
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME! Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
I'm curious, exactly what do you mean by "if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically".
What is it about JBC''s x-ray that tells you anything about how the bullet
was deformed?
I would imagine he is thinking about the amount of damage and the type
of bone.
Maybe also all the test bullets which have been fired into a wrist.
Post by Todd W. Vaughan
Todd
r***@sbcglobal.net
2006-03-19 22:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually
unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted
some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering
whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the Commission had
said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME! Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
***Maybe if a pristine bullet is fired at near muzzle velocity, nose
first into a radius bone, the bullet will mushroom every time.
However, CE399 is alleged to have traversed the bodies of 2 men before
striking the radius bone, as well as having already struck a rib, which
would have already slowed down the bullet prior to strking the radius
bone. Having already struck the rib, the bullet did not likely strike
the radius bone nose on, further reducing any possibility of
mushrooming.

***Ron Judge
Ben Holmes
2006-03-20 15:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually
unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted
some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering
whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the Commission had
said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME! Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
***Maybe if a pristine bullet is fired at near muzzle velocity, nose
first into a radius bone, the bullet will mushroom every time.
However, CE399 is alleged to have traversed the bodies of 2 men before
striking the radius bone, as well as having already struck a rib, which
would have already slowed down the bullet prior to strking the radius
bone. Having already struck the rib, the bullet did not likely strike
the radius bone nose on, further reducing any possibility of
mushrooming.
***Ron Judge
Page 32 of the LNT'ers manual.

Presumably, you're arguing that the rib is much less dense than the wrist. Or
that the velocity lost through JFK's throat and entry into Connally amounts to
roughly half of the initial velocity.

Why a bullet will "mushroom" if it hits head on, but suffer little to no damage
if it hits in any other direction - is a mystery that only LNT'ers are privy to.
Perhaps a bullet is weakest at the front...
--
http://NewsGuy.com/overview.htm 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Anthony Marsh
2006-03-20 19:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Tony Szamboti
Post by WhiskyJoe
it had survived all the damage it had apparently caused virtually
unscathed itself. The shell's near-pristine appearance, which prompted
some to call it the "magic bullet," left many skeptics wondering
whether the bullet in evidence had really done what the Commission had
said it had done.
All Carcano bullets have some magic in them. One can fire a Western
Cartridge bullet from a Carcano rifle into a log. It will penetrate
about 3 1/2 feet of wood before stopping. And the bullet will show less
damage than CE 399.
Geez, then why does CE856 look so bad? Apparently, the Warren Commission
couldn't get their bullets to go through radius bones of cadavers without
being highly deformed.
Because the same bullet will react differently under different conditions.
No, No, No, Tony! The bottom line is that if a jacketed lead bullet
smashed any human radius bone, the way John Connally's x-ray shows it to
be, it has to deform dramatically. That is what the material science and
stress analysis will show will happen everytime. The actual deformation
can look different but there will extensive mushrooming of the bullet
EVERYTIME! Why do you makes these statements where nothing can ever be
determinable? I really wonder about you.
***Maybe if a pristine bullet is fired at near muzzle velocity, nose
first into a radius bone, the bullet will mushroom every time.
However, CE399 is alleged to have traversed the bodies of 2 men before
striking the radius bone, as well as having already struck a rib, which
would have already slowed down the bullet prior to strking the radius
bone. Having already struck the rib, the bullet did not likely strike
the radius bone nose on, further reducing any possibility of
mushrooming.
That is one possible difference. Another possible difference is that it
struck at an angle.
Post by r***@sbcglobal.net
***Ron Judge
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