Discussion:
witnesses of jack ruby in dealey plaza 11-22-63
(too old to reply)
Sam
2004-06-21 03:10:28 UTC
Permalink
julia ann mercer

4 women in the dal-tex sewing room

phil willis

wes wise

jean hill

tom tilson
Martin Shackelford
2004-06-21 07:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Willis thought a man in one of his slides was Ruby, but closer photos by
other photographers show it wasn't--there is a good discussion of this
in Trask, Pictures of the Pain, and the same man also appears in other
photos Trask didn't publish.
Julia Ann Mercer reported seeing Ruby driving a truck in the Plaza that
morning, not around the time of the assassination.
The man Jean Hill saw, who also somewhat resembled Ruby, appears in
several photos--she saw him going from east to west along the Elm St.
extension. He was a Dallas Police detective, whose name I don't
recall--first name was Bob.
Don't recall the Wise and sewing women accounts offhand, or specifically
what Tilson had to say about Ruby.

Martin
Post by Sam
julia ann mercer
4 women in the dal-tex sewing room
phil willis
wes wise
jean hill
tom tilson
Sam
2004-06-21 07:37:52 UTC
Permalink
"Martin Shackelford" <***@concentric.net> wrote in message news:cb6152$***@dispatch.concentric.net...
<snippage>
Post by Martin Shackelford
Don't recall
<snippage>


it wasn't a memory test
Martin Shackelford
2004-06-22 04:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Well, that reply would make no sense if you hadn't snipped most of what
I said, Sam.

Martin
Post by Sam
<snippage>
Post by Martin Shackelford
Don't recall
<snippage>
it wasn't a memory test
Sam
2004-06-22 07:05:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Shackelford
Well, that reply would make no sense if you hadn't snipped most of what
I said, Sam.
Martin
your response was off thread topic and your information is wrong,
as usual as to the latter

you and i have nothing to discuss, martin
Martin Shackelford
2004-06-22 07:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Glad to see you only post twice when you have nothing to say.
And, I repeat, you snipped the on topic material so that your silly
comment would seem to make sense.
As for my information being "wrong," I see that all you can do is make
the claim--no specifics, no evidence--just pretending to be an authority.

Martin
Post by Sam
Post by Martin Shackelford
Well, that reply would make no sense if you hadn't snipped most of what
I said, Sam.
Martin
your response was off thread topic and your information is wrong,
as usual as to the latter
you and i have nothing to discuss, martin
Sam
2004-06-22 16:17:26 UTC
Permalink
the confidential informant to the IRS Investigation Division
[thank you to the source]
Post by Sam
julia ann mercer
4 women in the dal-tex sewing room
phil willis
wes wise
jean hill
tom tilson
Sam
2004-06-22 17:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
julia ann mercer
she saw ruby in a pickup truck parked partially on the elm street sidewalk
mid-morning and saw oswald(?) remove a rifle-shaped package
(perhaps the same package ed hoffman saw jackal remove the sniping rifle
from)
Post by Sam
the confidential informant to the IRS Investigation Division
[thank you to the source]
he or she was standing with ruby at the corner of the postal annex building
at the time of the shooting,
he or she saw ruby leave and head toward the dallas morning news building,
per the letter by the Chief of the IRS Investigation Division, Robert J.
Potrykus
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
4 women in the dal-tex sewing room
they saw ruby walking up and down the street on the east side of the tsbd,
then saw ruby give oswald a pistol when oswald came out of the tsbd,
per an fbi memo out of the tyler texas fbi office
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
phil willis
he saw ruby in front of the tsbd
(reference: my thread here titled "a wise jester")
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
wes wise
From: John Kajfes (***@io.org)
Subject: never called to testify
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Date: 1994-11-28 15:29:25 PST
<snippage>
Book of Facts: Wise, Wes
A reporter for KRLD-TV, and later Mayor of Dallas, Wise was never called to
testify before the Warren Commission, even though Malcolm Couch had told the
Commission that Wise reported seeing Jack Ruby walking along the side of the
Texas School Book Depository Building moments after the assassination. See
also RUBY IN DEALEY PLAZA. High Treason; Rush to Judgment <snippage>
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
jean hill
she was standing next to mary moorman and saw someone she thought was ruby
(but was told was not ruby by people who didn't see the person she was
referring to)
in front of the tsbd and running west into the parking lot jackal was in
behind the north knoll fence
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
tom tilson
tom saw ruby run down the embankment on the west side of the triple
underpass right after the assassination
"Tilson said he knew Jack Ruby, and the man looked enough like Jack Ruby to
be his "twin."(230)" per HSCA Appendix to Hearings - Volume XII, page 16


some of ruby's role in the assassination begins to become clear when one
takes into totality the above sightings of ruby in dealey plaza before,
during, and right after the assassination
Martin Shackelford
2004-06-23 07:42:29 UTC
Permalink
OK--
As I noted, Mercer saw Ruby in the morning, not around the time of the
assassination. We agree on that.

The confidential information report is interesting--the Postal Annex
Building was, of course, two blocks SOUTH of the TSBD, and if Ruby then
went to the Dallas Morning News (a block further south), the witnesses
who follow are all in error, as I noted in my previous post. This report
is consistent with other witnesses who knew Ruby at the Dallas Morning
News.

There was a man near the TSBD who somewhat resembled Ruby, and who was
mistaken for Ruby in one of the Phil Willis slides (this got a lot of
attention in the 1970s--Willis said he photographed the man he thought
was Ruby). Other photos (some published by Trask) show the same man at
the same time in the same location--it isn't Ruby. That could account
for the Willis and 4 Dal-Tex witnesses (do you really believe Ruby
handed Oswald a pistol on a public street?), and possibly Wise (hard to
tell from a second-hand version of his account).

There was a Dallas police detective who bore a resemblance to Ruby, and
who was moving rapidly west in front of the Depository toward the knoll
at the time Jean Hill reported seeing Ruby doing the same thing. I think
he appears in at least one film. First name Bob, someone here might
recall the last name.

Tilson is reporting Ruby going west from the knoll area at the time the
confidential informant cited above has him at the Dallas Morning News
(as confirmed by witnesses there). I suppose Tilson may also have seen
the above-mentioned detective, if the man was checking the entire area
north of Elm.

I don't think any of these witnesses are lying--this sort of honest
misidentification is common in this case, as it is in many others.

Martin
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
julia ann mercer
she saw ruby in a pickup truck parked partially on the elm street sidewalk
mid-morning and saw oswald(?) remove a rifle-shaped package
(perhaps the same package ed hoffman saw jackal remove the sniping rifle
from)
Post by Sam
the confidential informant to the IRS Investigation Division
[thank you to the source]
he or she was standing with ruby at the corner of the postal annex building
at the time of the shooting,
he or she saw ruby leave and head toward the dallas morning news building,
per the letter by the Chief of the IRS Investigation Division, Robert J.
Potrykus
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
4 women in the dal-tex sewing room
they saw ruby walking up and down the street on the east side of the tsbd,
then saw ruby give oswald a pistol when oswald came out of the tsbd,
per an fbi memo out of the tyler texas fbi office
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
phil willis
he saw ruby in front of the tsbd
(reference: my thread here titled "a wise jester")
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
wes wise
Subject: never called to testify
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Date: 1994-11-28 15:29:25 PST
<snippage>
Book of Facts: Wise, Wes
A reporter for KRLD-TV, and later Mayor of Dallas, Wise was never called to
testify before the Warren Commission, even though Malcolm Couch had told the
Commission that Wise reported seeing Jack Ruby walking along the side of the
Texas School Book Depository Building moments after the assassination. See
also RUBY IN DEALEY PLAZA. High Treason; Rush to Judgment <snippage>
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
jean hill
she was standing next to mary moorman and saw someone she thought was ruby
(but was told was not ruby by people who didn't see the person she was
referring to)
in front of the tsbd and running west into the parking lot jackal was in
behind the north knoll fence
Post by Sam
Post by Sam
tom tilson
tom saw ruby run down the embankment on the west side of the triple
underpass right after the assassination
"Tilson said he knew Jack Ruby, and the man looked enough like Jack Ruby to
be his "twin."(230)" per HSCA Appendix to Hearings - Volume XII, page 16
some of ruby's role in the assassination begins to become clear when one
takes into totality the above sightings of ruby in dealey plaza before,
during, and right after the assassination
Sam
2004-06-23 09:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Shackelford
OK--
As I noted,
why did you note it?
Post by Martin Shackelford
Mercer saw Ruby in the morning, not around the time of the
assassination. We agree on that.
The confidential information report is interesting--the Postal Annex
Building was, of course, two blocks SOUTH of the TSBD, and if Ruby then
went to the Dallas Morning News (a block further south), the witnesses
who follow are all in error, as I noted in my previous post. This report
is consistent with other witnesses who knew Ruby at the Dallas Morning
News.
There was a man near the TSBD who somewhat resembled Ruby, and who was
mistaken for Ruby in one of the Phil Willis slides (this got a lot of
attention in the 1970s--Willis said he photographed the man he thought
was Ruby). Other photos (some published by Trask) show the same man at
the same time in the same location--it isn't Ruby. That could account
for the Willis and 4 Dal-Tex witnesses (do you really believe Ruby
handed Oswald a pistol on a public street?)
i believe what i posted,
which is what the women reported,
i did not comment as to what i believe about it

you obviously have a problem with their story...
was their story not possible?

(do you really believe the 3 tramps were arrested in a boxcar south of
dealey plaza then walked back over the triple underpass then back east to
the police department, as opposed to being arrested north of the triple
underpass?)
Post by Martin Shackelford
, and possibly Wise (hard to
tell from a second-hand version of his account).
There was a Dallas police detective who bore a resemblance to Ruby,
is this resemblance something you see,
or something someone else described?
Post by Martin Shackelford
and
who was moving rapidly west in front of the Depository toward the knoll
at the time Jean Hill reported seeing Ruby doing the same thing.
i wasn't aware hill identified the person as ruby
her wc testimony seems to be that she was not identifying the person as ruby
Post by Martin Shackelford
I think
he appears in at least one film. First name Bob, someone here might
recall the last name.
Tilson is reporting Ruby going west from the knoll area at the time the
confidential informant
you wouldn't happen to know who this confidentail informant was, would you?
Post by Martin Shackelford
cited above has him at the Dallas Morning News
(as confirmed by witnesses there).
the informant indicated "Ruby left and headed toward the area of the Dallas
Morning News Building"
but does not have him "at the Dallas Morning News"

how did the witnesses confirm ruby's presence at the dmn,
with a 25 minute or so gap of ruby being unaccounted for at the dmn?
Post by Martin Shackelford
I suppose Tilson may also have seen
the above-mentioned detective, if the man was checking the entire area
north of Elm.
the person dpd officer tilson and his daughter saw was most likely
cleansing from the area the sniping rifle jackal used to kill jfk

per HSCA Appendix to Hearings - Volume XII, page 15:
"Tilson said he knew Jack Ruby and the man looked enough like Jack Ruby to
be his 'twin'. (230) That impression was so strong in Tilson's mind that he
noted that Ruby showed a lot of 'resourcefulness' in arranging to be
identified in a newspaper office at the time of the assassination with a lot
of influential witnesses."
Post by Martin Shackelford
I don't think any of these witnesses are lying--this sort of honest
misidentification is common in this case, as it is in many others.
i don't think you're lying,
perhaps the confidential informant to the irs was unwittingly with a ruby
imposter during the shooting,
or even a part of the conspiracy himself or herself (the informant),
and made it all up in manufacturing evidence to hide ruby's real actions
11-22-63...
Martin Shackelford
2004-06-23 10:40:26 UTC
Permalink
The tramps are a red herring, Sam. I get the same tactic from McAdams.
It doesn't work for him, either.
If the accounts of the "confidential informant" you cite, and the
accounts of those at the Dallas Morning News, where the informant said
Ruby was headed after leaving her, are accurate, Ruby was at the south
edge of the Plaza at the time of the shots, and proceeded SOUTH from
there to the Morning News.
To believe the Dal-Tex women's account, you either have to believe the
informant (who knew Ruby) lied, or that the women were mistaken in their
identification, as they have Ruby at the north edge of the Plaza when
the informant has him leaving the south edge and proceeding south,
confirmed by other witnesses at the News who knew Ruby. You offer both
the informant, and the North Plaza witnesses as if there was no
contradiction between them.
The DPD Detective--in photos, he resembles Ruby physically.
Hill didn't identify him as Ruby in her testimony--she did much later,
which is part of the problem.

Martin
Post by Sam
Post by Martin Shackelford
OK--
As I noted,
why did you note it?
Post by Martin Shackelford
Mercer saw Ruby in the morning, not around the time of the
assassination. We agree on that.
The confidential information report is interesting--the Postal Annex
Building was, of course, two blocks SOUTH of the TSBD, and if Ruby then
went to the Dallas Morning News (a block further south), the witnesses
who follow are all in error, as I noted in my previous post. This report
is consistent with other witnesses who knew Ruby at the Dallas Morning
News.
There was a man near the TSBD who somewhat resembled Ruby, and who was
mistaken for Ruby in one of the Phil Willis slides (this got a lot of
attention in the 1970s--Willis said he photographed the man he thought
was Ruby). Other photos (some published by Trask) show the same man at
the same time in the same location--it isn't Ruby. That could account
for the Willis and 4 Dal-Tex witnesses (do you really believe Ruby
handed Oswald a pistol on a public street?)
i believe what i posted,
which is what the women reported,
i did not comment as to what i believe about it
you obviously have a problem with their story...
was their story not possible?
(do you really believe the 3 tramps were arrested in a boxcar south of
dealey plaza then walked back over the triple underpass then back east to
the police department, as opposed to being arrested north of the triple
underpass?)
Post by Martin Shackelford
, and possibly Wise (hard to
tell from a second-hand version of his account).
There was a Dallas police detective who bore a resemblance to Ruby,
is this resemblance something you see,
or something someone else described?
Post by Martin Shackelford
and
who was moving rapidly west in front of the Depository toward the knoll
at the time Jean Hill reported seeing Ruby doing the same thing.
i wasn't aware hill identified the person as ruby
her wc testimony seems to be that she was not identifying the person as ruby
Post by Martin Shackelford
I think
he appears in at least one film. First name Bob, someone here might
recall the last name.
Tilson is reporting Ruby going west from the knoll area at the time the
confidential informant
you wouldn't happen to know who this confidentail informant was, would you?
Post by Martin Shackelford
cited above has him at the Dallas Morning News
(as confirmed by witnesses there).
the informant indicated "Ruby left and headed toward the area of the Dallas
Morning News Building"
but does not have him "at the Dallas Morning News"
how did the witnesses confirm ruby's presence at the dmn,
with a 25 minute or so gap of ruby being unaccounted for at the dmn?
Post by Martin Shackelford
I suppose Tilson may also have seen
the above-mentioned detective, if the man was checking the entire area
north of Elm.
the person dpd officer tilson and his daughter saw was most likely
cleansing from the area the sniping rifle jackal used to kill jfk
"Tilson said he knew Jack Ruby and the man looked enough like Jack Ruby to
be his 'twin'. (230) That impression was so strong in Tilson's mind that he
noted that Ruby showed a lot of 'resourcefulness' in arranging to be
identified in a newspaper office at the time of the assassination with a lot
of influential witnesses."
Post by Martin Shackelford
I don't think any of these witnesses are lying--this sort of honest
misidentification is common in this case, as it is in many others.
i don't think you're lying,
perhaps the confidential informant to the irs was unwittingly with a ruby
imposter during the shooting,
or even a part of the conspiracy himself or herself (the informant),
and made it all up in manufacturing evidence to hide ruby's real actions
11-22-63...
Sam
2004-06-23 21:56:02 UTC
Permalink
you left my questions below unanswered, martin

are you speaking at me? or with me?

i think the former, convince me otherwise...
Post by Martin Shackelford
The tramps are a red herring, Sam. I get the same tactic from McAdams.
It doesn't work for him, either.
If the accounts of the "confidential informant" you cite, and the
accounts of those at the Dallas Morning News, where the informant said
Ruby was headed after leaving her, are accurate, Ruby was at the south
edge of the Plaza at the time of the shots, and proceeded SOUTH from
there to the Morning News.
To believe the Dal-Tex women's account, you either have to believe the
informant (who knew Ruby) lied, or that the women were mistaken in their
identification, as they have Ruby at the north edge of the Plaza when
the informant has him leaving the south edge and proceeding south,
confirmed by other witnesses at the News who knew Ruby. You offer both
the informant, and the North Plaza witnesses as if there was no
contradiction between them.
The DPD Detective--in photos, he resembles Ruby physically.
Hill didn't identify him as Ruby in her testimony--she did much later,
which is part of the problem.
Martin
Post by Sam
Post by Martin Shackelford
OK--
As I noted,
why did you note it?
Post by Martin Shackelford
Mercer saw Ruby in the morning, not around the time of the
assassination. We agree on that.
The confidential information report is interesting--the Postal Annex
Building was, of course, two blocks SOUTH of the TSBD, and if Ruby then
went to the Dallas Morning News (a block further south), the witnesses
who follow are all in error, as I noted in my previous post. This report
is consistent with other witnesses who knew Ruby at the Dallas Morning
News.
There was a man near the TSBD who somewhat resembled Ruby, and who was
mistaken for Ruby in one of the Phil Willis slides (this got a lot of
attention in the 1970s--Willis said he photographed the man he thought
was Ruby). Other photos (some published by Trask) show the same man at
the same time in the same location--it isn't Ruby. That could account
for the Willis and 4 Dal-Tex witnesses (do you really believe Ruby
handed Oswald a pistol on a public street?)
i believe what i posted,
which is what the women reported,
i did not comment as to what i believe about it
you obviously have a problem with their story...
was their story not possible?
(do you really believe the 3 tramps were arrested in a boxcar south of
dealey plaza then walked back over the triple underpass then back east to
the police department, as opposed to being arrested north of the triple
underpass?)
Post by Martin Shackelford
, and possibly Wise (hard to
tell from a second-hand version of his account).
There was a Dallas police detective who bore a resemblance to Ruby,
is this resemblance something you see,
or something someone else described?
Post by Martin Shackelford
and
who was moving rapidly west in front of the Depository toward the knoll
at the time Jean Hill reported seeing Ruby doing the same thing.
i wasn't aware hill identified the person as ruby
her wc testimony seems to be that she was not identifying the person as ruby
Post by Martin Shackelford
I think
he appears in at least one film. First name Bob, someone here might
recall the last name.
Tilson is reporting Ruby going west from the knoll area at the time the
confidential informant
you wouldn't happen to know who this confidentail informant was, would you?
Post by Martin Shackelford
cited above has him at the Dallas Morning News
(as confirmed by witnesses there).
the informant indicated "Ruby left and headed toward the area of the Dallas
Morning News Building"
but does not have him "at the Dallas Morning News"
how did the witnesses confirm ruby's presence at the dmn,
with a 25 minute or so gap of ruby being unaccounted for at the dmn?
Post by Martin Shackelford
I suppose Tilson may also have seen
the above-mentioned detective, if the man was checking the entire area
north of Elm.
the person dpd officer tilson and his daughter saw was most likely
cleansing from the area the sniping rifle jackal used to kill jfk
"Tilson said he knew Jack Ruby and the man looked enough like Jack Ruby to
be his 'twin'. (230) That impression was so strong in Tilson's mind that he
noted that Ruby showed a lot of 'resourcefulness' in arranging to be
identified in a newspaper office at the time of the assassination with a lot
of influential witnesses."
Post by Martin Shackelford
I don't think any of these witnesses are lying--this sort of honest
misidentification is common in this case, as it is in many others.
i don't think you're lying,
perhaps the confidential informant to the irs was unwittingly with a ruby
imposter during the shooting,
or even a part of the conspiracy himself or herself (the informant),
and made it all up in manufacturing evidence to hide ruby's real actions
11-22-63...
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