Discussion:
Fritz first hears about the shells--The Three Versions ... And the source for Insp. Sawyer's mysterious "3rd floor"
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Donald Willis
2023-12-09 22:19:18 UTC
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Fritz first hears about the shells--The Three Versions
... And the source for Insp. Sawyer's mysterious "3rd floor"

First version:  Sims/Boyd [Homicide] report (Sims Exh. A).  "We [Fritz, Sims, Boyd] went on up to the 7th floor... About that time someone yelled that some empty hulls had been found on the 6th floor... [We] went to the SE window on the 6th floor & saw 3 empty rifle hulls...The empty hulls were found about 1:15."  This first version is easily dismissed. Perhaps--it might have been explained, retroactively--the "someone" was just belatedly yelling for Fritz to come and see the hulls, some 15 minutes after they had actually been found.  But as late as his Commission testimony (4/6/64), Det. Sims was still saying, "I think the hulls were found about 1:15." (v7p162) By then, such a misapprehension would have been corrected.

Even the Warren Report, which got a little closer to the actual time of the finding of the hulls, pegged it as late as 1:12, about the time of Insp. Sawyer's DPD radio transmission re the shells on the "3rd [sic] floor" (CE 1974 p176/DPD transcription), which it footnotes.  But Deputy Luke Mooney, who found the shells, said that when he found them, it was "approaching 1 o'clock" (v3p285), confirmed by DPD Sgt. Harkness' call for the Crime Lab, at about 12:59 (CE 1974 p41).  One might surmise that the Sims/Boyd "1:15" was based on DPD Sgt. Hill's shout out a 6th-floor window, but for more on Hill, we turn to...

Second Version:  Sgt. Hill:  "We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, 'Here it is!' or words to that effect... In front of the second window... were three spent shells... At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene... and went over still further west to another window... and yelled down to the street for them to send us the Crime Lab... I went to the back of the building... and Capt. Fritz  & his men were coming up on the elevator.  I told him what we found... I [went down to] make sure that the Crime Lab was en route..." (v7pp45-6).  

Right away--contradiction.  Hill has Fritz coming UP to the 6th floor to see the shells.  Sims/Boyd has him going DOWN to the 6th floor.  And it is not "someone yelling" who first calls Fritz's attention to the discovery of the shells, it's Sgt. Hill, but not with his famous window shout, but with a briefing near the elevator.  In fact, the timing seems to track:  At 12:58, the shells are found inside, just as Fritz arrives outside.  And Hill runs into Fritz "coming up".  Note that Hill does not add something like, say, Fritz informed me that he had already heard about the shells.  So we must assume here that Fritz (to make good the Hill version) had heard neither Mooney's shout nor Hill's, supposedly coming just after Mooney's.  Hill's version is more credible, it seems, at first, than the Sims/Boyd version.

But Hill then proceeds to call the first part of his sequencing into question.  He does a little time traveling, oh only about 10 minutes, but still traveling:  "About the time I got to the street, Lt. Day from the Crime Lab was arriving" (p47).  Lt. Day: "Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas... I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12." (v4p249)  In 1960s French New Wave film terms, this would be called a jump cut.  Jumping from circa 1:02 to circa 1:12.  Hill:  "And [Day] went on into the building, and I went over to tell Insp. Sawyer... what we found." (p47)

A seemingly harmless advisory. But, based on Sawyer's curious transmission (see above), about this same time, Sawyer heard Hill say that they had found shells on... the "3rd floor".  As Sawyer testified, "This was reported to me by somebody inside the building" (v6p322) Hill fills the bill. And, as we shall see, Fritz has fits. DPD poetry.

But why did Hill have to tell Sawyer anything? The two of them--along with a Patrolman Valentine--entered the depository together, about 12:52. (CE 1974 p28: 12:48 radio transmission: Hill and Valentine "en route Elm & Houston"/Sawyer: "I went [in] with a couple of officers" [v6p317]) At some point, though, the three must have split up and gone their separate ways. Valentine "was assigned to the fifth floor" (v25p914), and there are indeed photos of him watching over the 5th or 6th floor. Hill was there for Mooney's find.

But Sawyer must, for some reason, have left the search party early, before anything had been found. If he had been present at such a significant discovery, he would have radioed as soon as he got back out front. And at 1:08, Harkness radioes, "Anyone that gets information regarding this incident down here, bring it to 9 [Sawyer] at Elm & Houston." (CE 1974 p50) So, about 1:08, Sawyer begins processing information out front, but he doesn't use the radio himself until 1:12, after Hill catches him up on what the searchers found, some time after Sawyer splits off.

Re-creating the missing three or four minutes. The sound of a police radio out front carried well that afternoon. Det. Johnson, on the 6th floor, could hear a 1:20 transmission re the Tippit shooting (CE 2003 p210). So... Filling in the time gap between Hill's reporting to Sawyer and his shout to the world: At 1:12, someone upstairs must have heard Sawyer's "3rd floor" transmission, looked down, and saw Hill with Sawyer. Cue a "Jerry! Get your ass up here!" from an upstairs window. Quick-study Fritz--to forestall any further damage from Hill's cockamamie "3rd floor"--instructs Hill, fetched back upstairs, to go to a nearby 6th-floor window and correct his "mistake", with a shout and a gesture towards the "nest" area, as if the shells had just been discovered there. The apparent superfluousness of the Hill charade undermines its intended message, which was: Shells found just now, right here. But it was not "just now". Was it also not "right here"? How, that is, do you get "6th floor" out of "3rd floor"? And, ever since, it has been a bit of a mystery as to why a second shell shout was even needed, because...

Third version: ... Mooney reported, on 11/23/63, "I hung my head out of the half opened window & signaled to Sheriff Decker and Captain Fritz who were outside the building..." (v19p528) Fritz, then, had heard Mooney at 12:59, no problem. But he had to downplay the time of Mooney's discovery and align it more with Hill's later Fritz-inspired shout.

So, (1) by the time of his Commission testimony, Mooney is saying that no one "except the Sheriff" was looking up when he shouted (v3p284). But we know that at least Harkness and Deputy Sweatt (Decker Exhibit 5323 p531) heard him too. (2) Harkness is not asked, at the hearings, about his 12:59 request for the Crime Lab, and doesn't deign to mention it. 12:59pm, 11/22/63--one of the most important moments of the century, and the DPD diddles with it, and Counsel David Belin misses it. And Fritz is off the hook. A clean sweep. (3) While several photos of Hill at his window were snapped, none exist re Mooney at *his* window. (Although... check Trask (p519) for a photograph which shows someone at a SE corner 5th or 6th floor window--unfortunately unidentifiable, from about a block away--at "approximately 1:00".)

Finally, (4) Sawyer's advisory re the third floor is changed, in DPD Sgt. Henslee's transcription, to "fifth floor" (Sawyer Exh B p400), and (5) Sawyer dutifully reads this bogus transcription. And everyone of course can then, justifiably, take his "fifth floor" to mean "sixth floor". However, Trask's own transcription (p523), the FBI transcription (CE 1974 p176), and a subsequent DPD transcription (see above) all read "3rd floor". That "3rd" remains a mystery. As also the reason for Homicide's pernicious pretense that the shells were not found for about 17 minutes after they were found... All we know is that Fritz knew the secret of the third floor, and enlisted Mooney and fellow officers Sims, Boyd, Hill, Henslee, and Sawyer to help him keep it. Closing ranks...

dcw
Sam McClung
2023-12-10 05:05:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donald Willis
Fritz first hears about the shells--The Three Versions
... And the source for Insp. Sawyer's mysterious "3rd floor"
First version: Sims/Boyd [Homicide] report (Sims Exh. A). "We [Fritz, Sims, Boyd] went on up to the 7th floor... About that time someone yelled that some empty hulls had been found on the 6th floor... [We] went to the SE window on the 6th floor & saw 3 empty rifle hulls...The empty hulls were found about 1:15." This first version is easily dismissed. Perhaps--it might have been explained, retroactively--the "someone" was just belatedly yelling for Fritz to come and see the hulls, some 15 minutes after they had actually been found. But as late as his Commission testimony (4/6/64), Det. Sims was still saying, "I think the hulls were found about 1:15." (v7p162) By then, such a misapprehension would have been corrected.
Even the Warren Report, which got a little closer to the actual time of the finding of the hulls, pegged it as late as 1:12, about the time of Insp. Sawyer's DPD radio transmission re the shells on the "3rd [sic] floor" (CE 1974 p176/DPD transcription), which it footnotes. But Deputy Luke Mooney, who found the shells, said that when he found them, it was "approaching 1 o'clock" (v3p285), confirmed by DPD Sgt. Harkness' call for the Crime Lab, at about 12:59 (CE 1974 p41). One might surmise that the Sims/Boyd "1:15" was based on DPD Sgt. Hill's shout out a 6th-floor window, but for more on Hill, we turn to...
Second Version: Sgt. Hill: "We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, 'Here it is!' or words to that effect... In front of the second window... were three spent shells... At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene... and went over still further west to another window... and yelled down to the street for them to send us the Crime Lab... I went to the back of the building... and Capt. Fritz & his men were coming up on the elevator. I told him what we found... I [went down to] make sure that the Crime Lab was en route..." (v7pp45-6).
Right away--contradiction. Hill has Fritz coming UP to the 6th floor to see the shells. Sims/Boyd has him going DOWN to the 6th floor. And it is not "someone yelling" who first calls Fritz's attention to the discovery of the shells, it's Sgt. Hill, but not with his famous window shout, but with a briefing near the elevator. In fact, the timing seems to track: At 12:58, the shells are found inside, just as Fritz arrives outside. And Hill runs into Fritz "coming up". Note that Hill does not add something like, say, Fritz informed me that he had already heard about the shells. So we must assume here that Fritz (to make good the Hill version) had heard neither Mooney's shout nor Hill's, supposedly coming just after Mooney's. Hill's version is more credible, it seems, at first, than the Sims/Boyd version.
But Hill then proceeds to call the first part of his sequencing into question. He does a little time traveling, oh only about 10 minutes, but still traveling: "About the time I got to the street, Lt. Day from the Crime Lab was arriving" (p47). Lt. Day: "Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas... I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12." (v4p249) In 1960s French New Wave film terms, this would be called a jump cut. Jumping from circa 1:02 to circa 1:12. Hill: "And [Day] went on into the building, and I went over to tell Insp. Sawyer... what we found." (p47)
A seemingly harmless advisory. But, based on Sawyer's curious transmission (see above), about this same time, Sawyer heard Hill say that they had found shells on... the "3rd floor". As Sawyer testified, "This was reported to me by somebody inside the building" (v6p322) Hill fills the bill. And, as we shall see, Fritz has fits. DPD poetry.
But why did Hill have to tell Sawyer anything? The two of them--along with a Patrolman Valentine--entered the depository together, about 12:52. (CE 1974 p28: 12:48 radio transmission: Hill and Valentine "en route Elm & Houston"/Sawyer: "I went [in] with a couple of officers" [v6p317]) At some point, though, the three must have split up and gone their separate ways. Valentine "was assigned to the fifth floor" (v25p914), and there are indeed photos of him watching over the 5th or 6th floor. Hill was there for Mooney's find.
But Sawyer must, for some reason, have left the search party early, before anything had been found. If he had been present at such a significant discovery, he would have radioed as soon as he got back out front. And at 1:08, Harkness radioes, "Anyone that gets information regarding this incident down here, bring it to 9 [Sawyer] at Elm & Houston." (CE 1974 p50) So, about 1:08, Sawyer begins processing information out front, but he doesn't use the radio himself until 1:12, after Hill catches him up on what the searchers found, some time after Sawyer splits off.
Re-creating the missing three or four minutes. The sound of a police radio out front carried well that afternoon. Det. Johnson, on the 6th floor, could hear a 1:20 transmission re the Tippit shooting (CE 2003 p210). So... Filling in the time gap between Hill's reporting to Sawyer and his shout to the world: At 1:12, someone upstairs must have heard Sawyer's "3rd floor" transmission, looked down, and saw Hill with Sawyer. Cue a "Jerry! Get your ass up here!" from an upstairs window. Quick-study Fritz--to forestall any further damage from Hill's cockamamie "3rd floor"--instructs Hill, fetched back upstairs, to go to a nearby 6th-floor window and correct his "mistake", with a shout and a gesture towards the "nest" area, as if the shells had just been discovered there. The apparent superfluousness of the Hill charade undermines its intended message, which was: Shells found just now, right here. But it was not "just now". Was it also not "right here"? How, that is, do you get "6th floor" out of "3rd floor"? And, ever since, it has been a bit of a mystery as to why a second shell shout was even needed, because...
Third version: ... Mooney reported, on 11/23/63, "I hung my head out of the half opened window & signaled to Sheriff Decker and Captain Fritz who were outside the building..." (v19p528) Fritz, then, had heard Mooney at 12:59, no problem. But he had to downplay the time of Mooney's discovery and align it more with Hill's later Fritz-inspired shout.
So, (1) by the time of his Commission testimony, Mooney is saying that no one "except the Sheriff" was looking up when he shouted (v3p284). But we know that at least Harkness and Deputy Sweatt (Decker Exhibit 5323 p531) heard him too. (2) Harkness is not asked, at the hearings, about his 12:59 request for the Crime Lab, and doesn't deign to mention it. 12:59pm, 11/22/63--one of the most important moments of the century, and the DPD diddles with it, and Counsel David Belin misses it. And Fritz is off the hook. A clean sweep. (3) While several photos of Hill at his window were snapped, none exist re Mooney at *his* window. (Although... check Trask (p519) for a photograph which shows someone at a SE corner 5th or 6th floor window--unfortunately unidentifiable, from about a block away--at "approximately 1:00".)
Finally, (4) Sawyer's advisory re the third floor is changed, in DPD Sgt. Henslee's transcription, to "fifth floor" (Sawyer Exh B p400), and (5) Sawyer dutifully reads this bogus transcription. And everyone of course can then, justifiably, take his "fifth floor" to mean "sixth floor". However, Trask's own transcription (p523), the FBI transcription (CE 1974 p176), and a subsequent DPD transcription (see above) all read "3rd floor". That "3rd" remains a mystery. As also the reason for Homicide's pernicious pretense that the shells were not found for about 17 minutes after they were found... All we know is that Fritz knew the secret of the third floor, and enlisted Mooney and fellow officers Sims, Boyd, Hill, Henslee, and Sawyer to help him keep it. Closing ranks...
dcw
If the 3rd floor shells story was birthed about 1:15 this may have been to get non-Klan investigators out of the 5th/6th floor area so the Carcano and shells could be planted on the 5th floor and 6th floor, respectively, to cover up the original finding of the Mauser and 3 shells found on the 6th floor per the unimpeachable Roger Craig. The Carcano being found on the 5th floor may have been because the conspirators didn't feel comfortable planting it on the 6th floor because of possible non-friendlies (non-Klan) investigator(s) being on the 6th floor. Much easier to hide (in a pocket etc.) and bring 3 Carcano shells onto the 6th floor than to hide a rifle while transporting it onto the 6th floor. Perhaps Oswald brought the dismantled Carcano to the 3rd floor before leaving 411 ELm, per his orders, and the dismantled Carcano was reassembled then put on the 5th floor since non-frienly person(s) to the conspiracy were on the 6th floor making it unsafe to plant the Carcano on the 6th floor without being seen.
Donald Willis
2023-12-10 22:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam McClung
Post by Donald Willis
Fritz first hears about the shells--The Three Versions
... And the source for Insp. Sawyer's mysterious "3rd floor"
First version: Sims/Boyd [Homicide] report (Sims Exh. A). "We [Fritz, Sims, Boyd] went on up to the 7th floor... About that time someone yelled that some empty hulls had been found on the 6th floor... [We] went to the SE window on the 6th floor & saw 3 empty rifle hulls...The empty hulls were found about 1:15." This first version is easily dismissed. Perhaps--it might have been explained, retroactively--the "someone" was just belatedly yelling for Fritz to come and see the hulls, some 15 minutes after they had actually been found. But as late as his Commission testimony (4/6/64), Det. Sims was still saying, "I think the hulls were found about 1:15." (v7p162) By then, such a misapprehension would have been corrected.
Even the Warren Report, which got a little closer to the actual time of the finding of the hulls, pegged it as late as 1:12, about the time of Insp. Sawyer's DPD radio transmission re the shells on the "3rd [sic] floor" (CE 1974 p176/DPD transcription), which it footnotes. But Deputy Luke Mooney, who found the shells, said that when he found them, it was "approaching 1 o'clock" (v3p285), confirmed by DPD Sgt. Harkness' call for the Crime Lab, at about 12:59 (CE 1974 p41). One might surmise that the Sims/Boyd "1:15" was based on DPD Sgt. Hill's shout out a 6th-floor window, but for more on Hill, we turn to...
Second Version: Sgt. Hill: "We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, 'Here it is!' or words to that effect... In front of the second window... were three spent shells... At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene... and went over still further west to another window... and yelled down to the street for them to send us the Crime Lab... I went to the back of the building... and Capt. Fritz & his men were coming up on the elevator. I told him what we found... I [went down to] make sure that the Crime Lab was en route..." (v7pp45-6).
Right away--contradiction. Hill has Fritz coming UP to the 6th floor to see the shells. Sims/Boyd has him going DOWN to the 6th floor. And it is not "someone yelling" who first calls Fritz's attention to the discovery of the shells, it's Sgt. Hill, but not with his famous window shout, but with a briefing near the elevator. In fact, the timing seems to track: At 12:58, the shells are found inside, just as Fritz arrives outside. And Hill runs into Fritz "coming up". Note that Hill does not add something like, say, Fritz informed me that he had already heard about the shells. So we must assume here that Fritz (to make good the Hill version) had heard neither Mooney's shout nor Hill's, supposedly coming just after Mooney's. Hill's version is more credible, it seems, at first, than the Sims/Boyd version.
But Hill then proceeds to call the first part of his sequencing into question. He does a little time traveling, oh only about 10 minutes, but still traveling: "About the time I got to the street, Lt. Day from the Crime Lab was arriving" (p47). Lt. Day: "Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas... I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12." (v4p249) In 1960s French New Wave film terms, this would be called a jump cut. Jumping from circa 1:02 to circa 1:12. Hill: "And [Day] went on into the building, and I went over to tell Insp. Sawyer... what we found." (p47)
A seemingly harmless advisory. But, based on Sawyer's curious transmission (see above), about this same time, Sawyer heard Hill say that they had found shells on... the "3rd floor". As Sawyer testified, "This was reported to me by somebody inside the building" (v6p322) Hill fills the bill. And, as we shall see, Fritz has fits. DPD poetry.
But why did Hill have to tell Sawyer anything? The two of them--along with a Patrolman Valentine--entered the depository together, about 12:52. (CE 1974 p28: 12:48 radio transmission: Hill and Valentine "en route Elm & Houston"/Sawyer: "I went [in] with a couple of officers" [v6p317]) At some point, though, the three must have split up and gone their separate ways. Valentine "was assigned to the fifth floor" (v25p914), and there are indeed photos of him watching over the 5th or 6th floor. Hill was there for Mooney's find.
But Sawyer must, for some reason, have left the search party early, before anything had been found. If he had been present at such a significant discovery, he would have radioed as soon as he got back out front. And at 1:08, Harkness radioes, "Anyone that gets information regarding this incident down here, bring it to 9 [Sawyer] at Elm & Houston." (CE 1974 p50) So, about 1:08, Sawyer begins processing information out front, but he doesn't use the radio himself until 1:12, after Hill catches him up on what the searchers found, some time after Sawyer splits off.
Re-creating the missing three or four minutes. The sound of a police radio out front carried well that afternoon. Det. Johnson, on the 6th floor, could hear a 1:20 transmission re the Tippit shooting (CE 2003 p210). So... Filling in the time gap between Hill's reporting to Sawyer and his shout to the world: At 1:12, someone upstairs must have heard Sawyer's "3rd floor" transmission, looked down, and saw Hill with Sawyer. Cue a "Jerry! Get your ass up here!" from an upstairs window. Quick-study Fritz--to forestall any further damage from Hill's cockamamie "3rd floor"--instructs Hill, fetched back upstairs, to go to a nearby 6th-floor window and correct his "mistake", with a shout and a gesture towards the "nest" area, as if the shells had just been discovered there. The apparent superfluousness of the Hill charade undermines its intended message, which was: Shells found just now, right here. But it was not "just now". Was it also not "right here"? How, that is, do you get "6th floor" out of "3rd floor"? And, ever since, it has been a bit of a mystery as to why a second shell shout was even needed, because...
Third version: ... Mooney reported, on 11/23/63, "I hung my head out of the half opened window & signaled to Sheriff Decker and Captain Fritz who were outside the building..." (v19p528) Fritz, then, had heard Mooney at 12:59, no problem. But he had to downplay the time of Mooney's discovery and align it more with Hill's later Fritz-inspired shout.
So, (1) by the time of his Commission testimony, Mooney is saying that no one "except the Sheriff" was looking up when he shouted (v3p284). But we know that at least Harkness and Deputy Sweatt (Decker Exhibit 5323 p531) heard him too. (2) Harkness is not asked, at the hearings, about his 12:59 request for the Crime Lab, and doesn't deign to mention it. 12:59pm, 11/22/63--one of the most important moments of the century, and the DPD diddles with it, and Counsel David Belin misses it. And Fritz is off the hook. A clean sweep. (3) While several photos of Hill at his window were snapped, none exist re Mooney at *his* window. (Although... check Trask (p519) for a photograph which shows someone at a SE corner 5th or 6th floor window--unfortunately unidentifiable, from about a block away--at "approximately 1:00".)
Finally, (4) Sawyer's advisory re the third floor is changed, in DPD Sgt. Henslee's transcription, to "fifth floor" (Sawyer Exh B p400), and (5) Sawyer dutifully reads this bogus transcription. And everyone of course can then, justifiably, take his "fifth floor" to mean "sixth floor". However, Trask's own transcription (p523), the FBI transcription (CE 1974 p176), and a subsequent DPD transcription (see above) all read "3rd floor". That "3rd" remains a mystery. As also the reason for Homicide's pernicious pretense that the shells were not found for about 17 minutes after they were found... All we know is that Fritz knew the secret of the third floor, and enlisted Mooney and fellow officers Sims, Boyd, Hill, Henslee, and Sawyer to help him keep it. Closing ranks...
dcw
If the 3rd floor shells story was birthed about 1:15 this may have been to get non-Klan investigators out of the 5th/6th floor area so the Carcano and shells could be planted on the 5th floor and 6th floor, respectively, to cover up the original finding of the Mauser and 3 shells found on the 6th floor per the unimpeachable Roger Craig. The Carcano being found on the 5th floor may have been because the conspirators didn't feel comfortable planting it on the 6th floor because of possible non-friendlies (non-Klan) investigator(s) being on the 6th floor. Much easier to hide (in a pocket etc.) and bring 3 Carcano shells onto the 6th floor than to hide a rifle while transporting it onto the 6th floor. Perhaps Oswald brought the dismantled Carcano to the 3rd floor before leaving 411 ELm, per his orders, and the dismantled Carcano was reassembled then put on the 5th floor since non-frienly person(s) to the conspiracy were on the 6th floor making it unsafe to plant the Carcano on the 6th floor without being seen.
I remember asking Tom Alyea, in an email, if there weren't, as it seemed, TWO shell finds. He replied, No way. Just one. Well, as you say, easier to transport the shells from one area to another.
Sam McClung
2023-12-11 00:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam McClung
Post by Donald Willis
Fritz first hears about the shells--The Three Versions
... And the source for Insp. Sawyer's mysterious "3rd floor"
First version: Sims/Boyd [Homicide] report (Sims Exh. A). "We [Fritz, Sims, Boyd] went on up to the 7th floor... About that time someone yelled that some empty hulls had been found on the 6th floor... [We] went to the SE window on the 6th floor & saw 3 empty rifle hulls...The empty hulls were found about 1:15." This first version is easily dismissed. Perhaps--it might have been explained, retroactively--the "someone" was just belatedly yelling for Fritz to come and see the hulls, some 15 minutes after they had actually been found. But as late as his Commission testimony (4/6/64), Det. Sims was still saying, "I think the hulls were found about 1:15." (v7p162) By then, such a misapprehension would have been corrected.
Even the Warren Report, which got a little closer to the actual time of the finding of the hulls, pegged it as late as 1:12, about the time of Insp. Sawyer's DPD radio transmission re the shells on the "3rd [sic] floor" (CE 1974 p176/DPD transcription), which it footnotes. But Deputy Luke Mooney, who found the shells, said that when he found them, it was "approaching 1 o'clock" (v3p285), confirmed by DPD Sgt. Harkness' call for the Crime Lab, at about 12:59 (CE 1974 p41). One might surmise that the Sims/Boyd "1:15" was based on DPD Sgt. Hill's shout out a 6th-floor window, but for more on Hill, we turn to...
Second Version: Sgt. Hill: "We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, 'Here it is!' or words to that effect... In front of the second window... were three spent shells... At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene... and went over still further west to another window... and yelled down to the street for them to send us the Crime Lab... I went to the back of the building... and Capt. Fritz & his men were coming up on the elevator. I told him what we found... I [went down to] make sure that the Crime Lab was en route..." (v7pp45-6).
Right away--contradiction. Hill has Fritz coming UP to the 6th floor to see the shells. Sims/Boyd has him going DOWN to the 6th floor. And it is not "someone yelling" who first calls Fritz's attention to the discovery of the shells, it's Sgt. Hill, but not with his famous window shout, but with a briefing near the elevator. In fact, the timing seems to track: At 12:58, the shells are found inside, just as Fritz arrives outside. And Hill runs into Fritz "coming up". Note that Hill does not add something like, say, Fritz informed me that he had already heard about the shells. So we must assume here that Fritz (to make good the Hill version) had heard neither Mooney's shout nor Hill's, supposedly coming just after Mooney's. Hill's version is more credible, it seems, at first, than the Sims/Boyd version.
But Hill then proceeds to call the first part of his sequencing into question. He does a little time traveling, oh only about 10 minutes, but still traveling: "About the time I got to the street, Lt. Day from the Crime Lab was arriving" (p47). Lt. Day: "Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas... I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12." (v4p249) In 1960s French New Wave film terms, this would be called a jump cut. Jumping from circa 1:02 to circa 1:12. Hill: "And [Day] went on into the building, and I went over to tell Insp. Sawyer... what we found." (p47)
A seemingly harmless advisory. But, based on Sawyer's curious transmission (see above), about this same time, Sawyer heard Hill say that they had found shells on... the "3rd floor". As Sawyer testified, "This was reported to me by somebody inside the building" (v6p322) Hill fills the bill. And, as we shall see, Fritz has fits. DPD poetry.
But why did Hill have to tell Sawyer anything? The two of them--along with a Patrolman Valentine--entered the depository together, about 12:52. (CE 1974 p28: 12:48 radio transmission: Hill and Valentine "en route Elm & Houston"/Sawyer: "I went [in] with a couple of officers" [v6p317]) At some point, though, the three must have split up and gone their separate ways. Valentine "was assigned to the fifth floor" (v25p914), and there are indeed photos of him watching over the 5th or 6th floor. Hill was there for Mooney's find.
But Sawyer must, for some reason, have left the search party early, before anything had been found. If he had been present at such a significant discovery, he would have radioed as soon as he got back out front. And at 1:08, Harkness radioes, "Anyone that gets information regarding this incident down here, bring it to 9 [Sawyer] at Elm & Houston." (CE 1974 p50) So, about 1:08, Sawyer begins processing information out front, but he doesn't use the radio himself until 1:12, after Hill catches him up on what the searchers found, some time after Sawyer splits off.
Re-creating the missing three or four minutes. The sound of a police radio out front carried well that afternoon. Det. Johnson, on the 6th floor, could hear a 1:20 transmission re the Tippit shooting (CE 2003 p210). So... Filling in the time gap between Hill's reporting to Sawyer and his shout to the world: At 1:12, someone upstairs must have heard Sawyer's "3rd floor" transmission, looked down, and saw Hill with Sawyer. Cue a "Jerry! Get your ass up here!" from an upstairs window. Quick-study Fritz--to forestall any further damage from Hill's cockamamie "3rd floor"--instructs Hill, fetched back upstairs, to go to a nearby 6th-floor window and correct his "mistake", with a shout and a gesture towards the "nest" area, as if the shells had just been discovered there. The apparent superfluousness of the Hill charade undermines its intended message, which was: Shells found just now, right here. But it was not "just now". Was it also not "right here"? How, that is, do you get "6th floor" out of "3rd floor"? And, ever since, it has been a bit of a mystery as to why a second shell shout was even needed, because...
Third version: ... Mooney reported, on 11/23/63, "I hung my head out of the half opened window & signaled to Sheriff Decker and Captain Fritz who were outside the building..." (v19p528) Fritz, then, had heard Mooney at 12:59, no problem. But he had to downplay the time of Mooney's discovery and align it more with Hill's later Fritz-inspired shout.
So, (1) by the time of his Commission testimony, Mooney is saying that no one "except the Sheriff" was looking up when he shouted (v3p284). But we know that at least Harkness and Deputy Sweatt (Decker Exhibit 5323 p531) heard him too. (2) Harkness is not asked, at the hearings, about his 12:59 request for the Crime Lab, and doesn't deign to mention it. 12:59pm, 11/22/63--one of the most important moments of the century, and the DPD diddles with it, and Counsel David Belin misses it. And Fritz is off the hook. A clean sweep. (3) While several photos of Hill at his window were snapped, none exist re Mooney at *his* window. (Although... check Trask (p519) for a photograph which shows someone at a SE corner 5th or 6th floor window--unfortunately unidentifiable, from about a block away--at "approximately 1:00".)
Finally, (4) Sawyer's advisory re the third floor is changed, in DPD Sgt. Henslee's transcription, to "fifth floor" (Sawyer Exh B p400), and (5) Sawyer dutifully reads this bogus transcription. And everyone of course can then, justifiably, take his "fifth floor" to mean "sixth floor". However, Trask's own transcription (p523), the FBI transcription (CE 1974 p176), and a subsequent DPD transcription (see above) all read "3rd floor". That "3rd" remains a mystery. As also the reason for Homicide's pernicious pretense that the shells were not found for about 17 minutes after they were found... All we know is that Fritz knew the secret of the third floor, and enlisted Mooney and fellow officers Sims, Boyd, Hill, Henslee, and Sawyer to help him keep it. Closing ranks...
dcw
If the 3rd floor shells story was birthed about 1:15 this may have been to get non-Klan investigators out of the 5th/6th floor area so the Carcano and shells could be planted on the 5th floor and 6th floor, respectively, to cover up the original finding of the Mauser and 3 shells found on the 6th floor per the unimpeachable Roger Craig. The Carcano being found on the 5th floor may have been because the conspirators didn't feel comfortable planting it on the 6th floor because of possible non-friendlies (non-Klan) investigator(s) being on the 6th floor. Much easier to hide (in a pocket etc.) and bring 3 Carcano shells onto the 6th floor than to hide a rifle while transporting it onto the 6th floor. Perhaps Oswald brought the dismantled Carcano to the 3rd floor before leaving 411 ELm, per his orders, and the dismantled Carcano was reassembled then put on the 5th floor since non-frienly person(s) to the conspiracy were on the 6th floor making it unsafe to plant the Carcano on the 6th floor without being seen.
I remember asking Tom Alyea, in an email, if there weren't, as it seemed, TWO shell finds. He replied, No way. Just one. Well, as you say, easier to transport the shells from one area to another.
"No way" tells me Alyea thought he was omnipotent.
I say there is no way Alyea would know because he could only be on one floor at a time, not two.
Sam McClung
2023-12-11 00:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam McClung
Post by Sam McClung
Post by Donald Willis
Fritz first hears about the shells--The Three Versions
... And the source for Insp. Sawyer's mysterious "3rd floor"
First version: Sims/Boyd [Homicide] report (Sims Exh. A). "We [Fritz, Sims, Boyd] went on up to the 7th floor... About that time someone yelled that some empty hulls had been found on the 6th floor... [We] went to the SE window on the 6th floor & saw 3 empty rifle hulls...The empty hulls were found about 1:15." This first version is easily dismissed. Perhaps--it might have been explained, retroactively--the "someone" was just belatedly yelling for Fritz to come and see the hulls, some 15 minutes after they had actually been found. But as late as his Commission testimony (4/6/64), Det. Sims was still saying, "I think the hulls were found about 1:15." (v7p162) By then, such a misapprehension would have been corrected.
Even the Warren Report, which got a little closer to the actual time of the finding of the hulls, pegged it as late as 1:12, about the time of Insp. Sawyer's DPD radio transmission re the shells on the "3rd [sic] floor" (CE 1974 p176/DPD transcription), which it footnotes. But Deputy Luke Mooney, who found the shells, said that when he found them, it was "approaching 1 o'clock" (v3p285), confirmed by DPD Sgt. Harkness' call for the Crime Lab, at about 12:59 (CE 1974 p41). One might surmise that the Sims/Boyd "1:15" was based on DPD Sgt. Hill's shout out a 6th-floor window, but for more on Hill, we turn to...
Second Version: Sgt. Hill: "We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, 'Here it is!' or words to that effect... In front of the second window... were three spent shells... At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene... and went over still further west to another window... and yelled down to the street for them to send us the Crime Lab... I went to the back of the building... and Capt. Fritz & his men were coming up on the elevator. I told him what we found... I [went down to] make sure that the Crime Lab was en route..." (v7pp45-6).
Right away--contradiction. Hill has Fritz coming UP to the 6th floor to see the shells. Sims/Boyd has him going DOWN to the 6th floor. And it is not "someone yelling" who first calls Fritz's attention to the discovery of the shells, it's Sgt. Hill, but not with his famous window shout, but with a briefing near the elevator. In fact, the timing seems to track: At 12:58, the shells are found inside, just as Fritz arrives outside. And Hill runs into Fritz "coming up". Note that Hill does not add something like, say, Fritz informed me that he had already heard about the shells. So we must assume here that Fritz (to make good the Hill version) had heard neither Mooney's shout nor Hill's, supposedly coming just after Mooney's. Hill's version is more credible, it seems, at first, than the Sims/Boyd version.
But Hill then proceeds to call the first part of his sequencing into question. He does a little time traveling, oh only about 10 minutes, but still traveling: "About the time I got to the street, Lt. Day from the Crime Lab was arriving" (p47). Lt. Day: "Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas... I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12." (v4p249) In 1960s French New Wave film terms, this would be called a jump cut. Jumping from circa 1:02 to circa 1:12. Hill: "And [Day] went on into the building, and I went over to tell Insp. Sawyer... what we found." (p47)
A seemingly harmless advisory. But, based on Sawyer's curious transmission (see above), about this same time, Sawyer heard Hill say that they had found shells on... the "3rd floor". As Sawyer testified, "This was reported to me by somebody inside the building" (v6p322) Hill fills the bill. And, as we shall see, Fritz has fits. DPD poetry.
But why did Hill have to tell Sawyer anything? The two of them--along with a Patrolman Valentine--entered the depository together, about 12:52. (CE 1974 p28: 12:48 radio transmission: Hill and Valentine "en route Elm & Houston"/Sawyer: "I went [in] with a couple of officers" [v6p317]) At some point, though, the three must have split up and gone their separate ways. Valentine "was assigned to the fifth floor" (v25p914), and there are indeed photos of him watching over the 5th or 6th floor. Hill was there for Mooney's find.
But Sawyer must, for some reason, have left the search party early, before anything had been found. If he had been present at such a significant discovery, he would have radioed as soon as he got back out front. And at 1:08, Harkness radioes, "Anyone that gets information regarding this incident down here, bring it to 9 [Sawyer] at Elm & Houston." (CE 1974 p50) So, about 1:08, Sawyer begins processing information out front, but he doesn't use the radio himself until 1:12, after Hill catches him up on what the searchers found, some time after Sawyer splits off.
Re-creating the missing three or four minutes. The sound of a police radio out front carried well that afternoon. Det. Johnson, on the 6th floor, could hear a 1:20 transmission re the Tippit shooting (CE 2003 p210). So... Filling in the time gap between Hill's reporting to Sawyer and his shout to the world: At 1:12, someone upstairs must have heard Sawyer's "3rd floor" transmission, looked down, and saw Hill with Sawyer. Cue a "Jerry! Get your ass up here!" from an upstairs window. Quick-study Fritz--to forestall any further damage from Hill's cockamamie "3rd floor"--instructs Hill, fetched back upstairs, to go to a nearby 6th-floor window and correct his "mistake", with a shout and a gesture towards the "nest" area, as if the shells had just been discovered there. The apparent superfluousness of the Hill charade undermines its intended message, which was: Shells found just now, right here. But it was not "just now". Was it also not "right here"? How, that is, do you get "6th floor" out of "3rd floor"? And, ever since, it has been a bit of a mystery as to why a second shell shout was even needed, because...
Third version: ... Mooney reported, on 11/23/63, "I hung my head out of the half opened window & signaled to Sheriff Decker and Captain Fritz who were outside the building..." (v19p528) Fritz, then, had heard Mooney at 12:59, no problem. But he had to downplay the time of Mooney's discovery and align it more with Hill's later Fritz-inspired shout.
So, (1) by the time of his Commission testimony, Mooney is saying that no one "except the Sheriff" was looking up when he shouted (v3p284). But we know that at least Harkness and Deputy Sweatt (Decker Exhibit 5323 p531) heard him too. (2) Harkness is not asked, at the hearings, about his 12:59 request for the Crime Lab, and doesn't deign to mention it. 12:59pm, 11/22/63--one of the most important moments of the century, and the DPD diddles with it, and Counsel David Belin misses it. And Fritz is off the hook. A clean sweep. (3) While several photos of Hill at his window were snapped, none exist re Mooney at *his* window. (Although... check Trask (p519) for a photograph which shows someone at a SE corner 5th or 6th floor window--unfortunately unidentifiable, from about a block away--at "approximately 1:00".)
Finally, (4) Sawyer's advisory re the third floor is changed, in DPD Sgt. Henslee's transcription, to "fifth floor" (Sawyer Exh B p400), and (5) Sawyer dutifully reads this bogus transcription. And everyone of course can then, justifiably, take his "fifth floor" to mean "sixth floor". However, Trask's own transcription (p523), the FBI transcription (CE 1974 p176), and a subsequent DPD transcription (see above) all read "3rd floor". That "3rd" remains a mystery. As also the reason for Homicide's pernicious pretense that the shells were not found for about 17 minutes after they were found... All we know is that Fritz knew the secret of the third floor, and enlisted Mooney and fellow officers Sims, Boyd, Hill, Henslee, and Sawyer to help him keep it. Closing ranks...
dcw
If the 3rd floor shells story was birthed about 1:15 this may have been to get non-Klan investigators out of the 5th/6th floor area so the Carcano and shells could be planted on the 5th floor and 6th floor, respectively, to cover up the original finding of the Mauser and 3 shells found on the 6th floor per the unimpeachable Roger Craig. The Carcano being found on the 5th floor may have been because the conspirators didn't feel comfortable planting it on the 6th floor because of possible non-friendlies (non-Klan) investigator(s) being on the 6th floor. Much easier to hide (in a pocket etc.) and bring 3 Carcano shells onto the 6th floor than to hide a rifle while transporting it onto the 6th floor. Perhaps Oswald brought the dismantled Carcano to the 3rd floor before leaving 411 ELm, per his orders, and the dismantled Carcano was reassembled then put on the 5th floor since non-frienly person(s) to the conspiracy were on the 6th floor making it unsafe to plant the Carcano on the 6th floor without being seen.
I remember asking Tom Alyea, in an email, if there weren't, as it seemed, TWO shell finds. He replied, No way. Just one. Well, as you say, easier to transport the shells from one area to another.
"No way" tells me Alyea thought he was omnipotent.
I say there is no way Alyea would know because he could only be on one floor at a time, not two.
Also, it would be interesting to know if Alyea was the photographer who shot the Carcano film made at 1:55 pm that was spliced into the 1:06 pm Mauser finding resulting in the extant "Alyea film." If so, he was clearly one of "them." If not, and he filmed the Mauser finding, he knew it was identified after close inspection as a Mauser. Either way, I consider him to be a compromised witness.
Donald Willis
2023-12-11 02:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam McClung
Post by Sam McClung
Post by Donald Willis
Fritz first hears about the shells--The Three Versions
... And the source for Insp. Sawyer's mysterious "3rd floor"
First version: Sims/Boyd [Homicide] report (Sims Exh. A). "We [Fritz, Sims, Boyd] went on up to the 7th floor... About that time someone yelled that some empty hulls had been found on the 6th floor... [We] went to the SE window on the 6th floor & saw 3 empty rifle hulls...The empty hulls were found about 1:15." This first version is easily dismissed. Perhaps--it might have been explained, retroactively--the "someone" was just belatedly yelling for Fritz to come and see the hulls, some 15 minutes after they had actually been found. But as late as his Commission testimony (4/6/64), Det. Sims was still saying, "I think the hulls were found about 1:15." (v7p162) By then, such a misapprehension would have been corrected.
Even the Warren Report, which got a little closer to the actual time of the finding of the hulls, pegged it as late as 1:12, about the time of Insp. Sawyer's DPD radio transmission re the shells on the "3rd [sic] floor" (CE 1974 p176/DPD transcription), which it footnotes. But Deputy Luke Mooney, who found the shells, said that when he found them, it was "approaching 1 o'clock" (v3p285), confirmed by DPD Sgt. Harkness' call for the Crime Lab, at about 12:59 (CE 1974 p41). One might surmise that the Sims/Boyd "1:15" was based on DPD Sgt. Hill's shout out a 6th-floor window, but for more on Hill, we turn to...
Second Version: Sgt. Hill: "We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, 'Here it is!' or words to that effect... In front of the second window... were three spent shells... At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene... and went over still further west to another window... and yelled down to the street for them to send us the Crime Lab... I went to the back of the building... and Capt. Fritz & his men were coming up on the elevator. I told him what we found... I [went down to] make sure that the Crime Lab was en route..." (v7pp45-6).
Right away--contradiction. Hill has Fritz coming UP to the 6th floor to see the shells. Sims/Boyd has him going DOWN to the 6th floor. And it is not "someone yelling" who first calls Fritz's attention to the discovery of the shells, it's Sgt. Hill, but not with his famous window shout, but with a briefing near the elevator. In fact, the timing seems to track: At 12:58, the shells are found inside, just as Fritz arrives outside. And Hill runs into Fritz "coming up". Note that Hill does not add something like, say, Fritz informed me that he had already heard about the shells. So we must assume here that Fritz (to make good the Hill version) had heard neither Mooney's shout nor Hill's, supposedly coming just after Mooney's. Hill's version is more credible, it seems, at first, than the Sims/Boyd version.
But Hill then proceeds to call the first part of his sequencing into question. He does a little time traveling, oh only about 10 minutes, but still traveling: "About the time I got to the street, Lt. Day from the Crime Lab was arriving" (p47). Lt. Day: "Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas... I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12." (v4p249) In 1960s French New Wave film terms, this would be called a jump cut. Jumping from circa 1:02 to circa 1:12. Hill: "And [Day] went on into the building, and I went over to tell Insp. Sawyer... what we found." (p47)
A seemingly harmless advisory. But, based on Sawyer's curious transmission (see above), about this same time, Sawyer heard Hill say that they had found shells on... the "3rd floor". As Sawyer testified, "This was reported to me by somebody inside the building" (v6p322) Hill fills the bill. And, as we shall see, Fritz has fits. DPD poetry.
But why did Hill have to tell Sawyer anything? The two of them--along with a Patrolman Valentine--entered the depository together, about 12:52. (CE 1974 p28: 12:48 radio transmission: Hill and Valentine "en route Elm & Houston"/Sawyer: "I went [in] with a couple of officers" [v6p317]) At some point, though, the three must have split up and gone their separate ways. Valentine "was assigned to the fifth floor" (v25p914), and there are indeed photos of him watching over the 5th or 6th floor. Hill was there for Mooney's find.
But Sawyer must, for some reason, have left the search party early, before anything had been found. If he had been present at such a significant discovery, he would have radioed as soon as he got back out front. And at 1:08, Harkness radioes, "Anyone that gets information regarding this incident down here, bring it to 9 [Sawyer] at Elm & Houston." (CE 1974 p50) So, about 1:08, Sawyer begins processing information out front, but he doesn't use the radio himself until 1:12, after Hill catches him up on what the searchers found, some time after Sawyer splits off.
Re-creating the missing three or four minutes. The sound of a police radio out front carried well that afternoon. Det. Johnson, on the 6th floor, could hear a 1:20 transmission re the Tippit shooting (CE 2003 p210). So... Filling in the time gap between Hill's reporting to Sawyer and his shout to the world: At 1:12, someone upstairs must have heard Sawyer's "3rd floor" transmission, looked down, and saw Hill with Sawyer. Cue a "Jerry! Get your ass up here!" from an upstairs window. Quick-study Fritz--to forestall any further damage from Hill's cockamamie "3rd floor"--instructs Hill, fetched back upstairs, to go to a nearby 6th-floor window and correct his "mistake", with a shout and a gesture towards the "nest" area, as if the shells had just been discovered there. The apparent superfluousness of the Hill charade undermines its intended message, which was: Shells found just now, right here. But it was not "just now". Was it also not "right here"? How, that is, do you get "6th floor" out of "3rd floor"? And, ever since, it has been a bit of a mystery as to why a second shell shout was even needed, because...
Third version: ... Mooney reported, on 11/23/63, "I hung my head out of the half opened window & signaled to Sheriff Decker and Captain Fritz who were outside the building..." (v19p528) Fritz, then, had heard Mooney at 12:59, no problem. But he had to downplay the time of Mooney's discovery and align it more with Hill's later Fritz-inspired shout.
So, (1) by the time of his Commission testimony, Mooney is saying that no one "except the Sheriff" was looking up when he shouted (v3p284). But we know that at least Harkness and Deputy Sweatt (Decker Exhibit 5323 p531) heard him too. (2) Harkness is not asked, at the hearings, about his 12:59 request for the Crime Lab, and doesn't deign to mention it. 12:59pm, 11/22/63--one of the most important moments of the century, and the DPD diddles with it, and Counsel David Belin misses it. And Fritz is off the hook. A clean sweep. (3) While several photos of Hill at his window were snapped, none exist re Mooney at *his* window. (Although... check Trask (p519) for a photograph which shows someone at a SE corner 5th or 6th floor window--unfortunately unidentifiable, from about a block away--at "approximately 1:00".)
Finally, (4) Sawyer's advisory re the third floor is changed, in DPD Sgt. Henslee's transcription, to "fifth floor" (Sawyer Exh B p400), and (5) Sawyer dutifully reads this bogus transcription. And everyone of course can then, justifiably, take his "fifth floor" to mean "sixth floor". However, Trask's own transcription (p523), the FBI transcription (CE 1974 p176), and a subsequent DPD transcription (see above) all read "3rd floor". That "3rd" remains a mystery. As also the reason for Homicide's pernicious pretense that the shells were not found for about 17 minutes after they were found... All we know is that Fritz knew the secret of the third floor, and enlisted Mooney and fellow officers Sims, Boyd, Hill, Henslee, and Sawyer to help him keep it. Closing ranks...
dcw
If the 3rd floor shells story was birthed about 1:15 this may have been to get non-Klan investigators out of the 5th/6th floor area so the Carcano and shells could be planted on the 5th floor and 6th floor, respectively, to cover up the original finding of the Mauser and 3 shells found on the 6th floor per the unimpeachable Roger Craig. The Carcano being found on the 5th floor may have been because the conspirators didn't feel comfortable planting it on the 6th floor because of possible non-friendlies (non-Klan) investigator(s) being on the 6th floor. Much easier to hide (in a pocket etc.) and bring 3 Carcano shells onto the 6th floor than to hide a rifle while transporting it onto the 6th floor. Perhaps Oswald brought the dismantled Carcano to the 3rd floor before leaving 411 ELm, per his orders, and the dismantled Carcano was reassembled then put on the 5th floor since non-frienly person(s) to the conspiracy were on the 6th floor making it unsafe to plant the Carcano on the 6th floor without being seen.
I remember asking Tom Alyea, in an email, if there weren't, as it seemed, TWO shell finds. He replied, No way. Just one. Well, as you say, easier to transport the shells from one area to another.
"No way" tells me Alyea thought he was omnipotent.
I say there is no way Alyea would know because he could only be on one floor at a time, not two.
Good point

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