Honest Joe's Pawn Shop Truck

[Vern Pascal]

(From Encyclopedia of the JfK Assassination, by Micael Benson)

"Joe Goldstein was another guy said to be 'best friends' with Jack Ruby.
Goldstein was known as a 'Dallas extrovert', an eccentric who advertised
himself as 'Honest Joe Goldstein, the Loan Ranger'. Goldstein owned a
gaudily painted Edsel with a plugged .50 caliber machine gun mounted on
the top that, according to Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels, was
parked outside the Dallas police station on Commerce Street during the
early evening of November 23.

Reporter Tony Zoppi, who watched the motorcade on Main Street, recalls,
'We all said, here comes the parade, and it was honest Joe in his
station wagon about two minutes before the parade,'

A.J. Millican, an assassination witness, told sheriff's deputies he saw
'a truck from Honest Joe's Pawn Shop park close to the Texas School Book
Depository, then drive off five to ten minutes before the assassination.

(In my next post I will highlight Millican, who heard a total of eight
shots from two different directions!!)

Assassination witness Jean Hill told Dallas reporter Jim Marrs that,
before the assassination, she had seen a van with writing on the side
that said 'Uncle Joe's Pawn Shop'. The van drove past police lines and
down the service road in front of the TSBD, and behind the pergola.

Assassination witness Marilyn Willis told FBI special agent A. Raymond
Switzer on June 19, 1964, that,30 seconds before the parade, 'there was
an old loan truck called 'Honest Joe'. He was a pawn shop operator and
his old black car was painted with all kinds of signs on it and I had a
great big gun mounted on top of that car. And he drove up Houston
towards the Depository and pulled in behind somewhere back there and
turn around and came back."

If the driver were parked behind the pergola during the shooting, he
would have been a witness not only to the assassination, but also to any
suspicious activity behind the fence in the car lot and railroad yard
area. Why wasn't he questioned? And what about him being parked outside
the police station the night before LHO's murder by his friend Jack
Ruby?! More coincidences?---------Vern

[Vern Pascal]

A.J. Millican was standing on the north side of Elm midway between
Houston and the triple underpass at the time of the assassination. As
mentioned in the above post, he saw "Honest Joe's Pawn Shop" truck
parked close to the TSBD shortly before the shooting.

According to Millican: "Just after the president's car passed, I heard
three shots from up toward Elm right by the TSBD, and then immediately I
heard two more shots come from the arcade between the TSBD and the
underpass, then three more shots came from the same direction only
sounded further back. It sounded approximately like a .45 automatic, or
a high-powered rifle."

So Millican heard a total of eight shots! And from three different
locations! First volley from "right by the TSBD", but not necessarily
from the building itself! The second volley from the "arcade", or
pergola area, possibly including the fence on the knoll. The third burst
of gunfire from "further back' than the pergola/grassy knoll area.
Could this be the junction between the underpass and the fence, long
thought to be a sniper location? Can all this be simply attributed to
mere echoes, or do some people have a very acute sense of hearing,
allowing them to differentiate keenly the sounds coming from different
directions? Perhaps the three synchronized volleys he heard were simply
reduced to only three shots by most earwitnesses.

Anyway, it's interesting to note that Homer McMahon at the Kodak Lab
in Rochester, said that on the Z film which he watched about ten times,
there was evidence of "6 to 8 shots".
And keep in mind that the crime scene, the limo was whisked out of town,
so we'll never know what evidence has been lost as to the number of
bullets which may have left their mark in or on the car. Homer Mc Mahon
surely must give one doubts that only three shots were fired that day.

A.J. Millican was never questioned by either the Warren Commission or
the HSCA. Par for the course.-------Vern

[Vern Pascal]

Let's enumerate the coincidences:

1. The owner of the panel truck, Joe Goldstein, was a good friend of
Jack Ruby.

2. The truck was seen by several witnesses just minutes before the
assassination in the near vicinity of the TSBD and behind the pergola.

3. It was parked near the Dallas Police Station, where LHO was being
held, the night of the 23rd.

4. Neither the DPD, nor the FBI, nor the SS, nor the WC, nor the HSCA,
were interested in what the driver of this truck had to say about all
this!

This particular truck could hardly be missed, with a .50 caliber
machinegun (plugged) mounted on its top. Only in Texas, I
guess.-------Vern

[Steve Thomas]

Post by Vern Pascal
1. The owner of the panel truck, Joe Goldstein, was a good friend of
Jack Ruby.
2. The truck was seen by several witnesses just minutes before the
assassination in the near vicinity of the TSBD and behind the pergola.
3. It was parked near the Dallas Police Station, where LHO was being
held, the night of the 23rd.

There's another one too.

Speaking of the morning of the 24th just prior to Oswald's transfer,
Forrest Sorrels told the WC, "And then he was taken out, and, at that
time, as I recall it, Inspector Kelley and I left and went up to---I
say up---down the hall to the executive office area of the police
department, and to the office of Deputy Chief Batchelor.
And we remained in that vicinity. I looked out the window, and saw the
people across the street, on Commerce Street, people were waiting
there. And I saw an individual that I know by the name of Ruby
Goldstein, who is known as Honest Joe, that has a second-hand tool and
pawnshop down on Elm Street, and everyone around there knows him. He
was leaning on the car looking over in the direction of the ramp there
at the police station."

Steve Thomas

[Vern Pascal]

Thanks Steve for this most interesting addition to the "coincidences",
that Goldstein himself was seen on Commerce Street near the Police
Station by Forrest Sorrels the morning of the LHO transfer, looking in
the direction of the infamous ramp! I sure wish someone had questioned
this guy somewhere down the line. But I suppose he's pawned his way into
Heaven by now.------Vern

[O.H. LEE]

Post by Vern Pascal
1. The owner of the panel truck, Joe Goldstein, was a good friend of
Jack Ruby.
2. The truck was seen by several witnesses just minutes before the
assassination in the near vicinity of the TSBD and behind the pergola.
3. It was parked near the Dallas Police Station, where LHO was being
held, the night of the 23rd.
4. Neither the DPD, nor the FBI, nor the SS, nor the WC, nor the HSCA,
were interested in what the driver of this truck had to say about all
this!
This particular truck could hardly be missed, with a .50 caliber
machinegun (plugged) mounted on its top. Only in Texas, I
guess.-------Vern

Hey Vern, this guy had a .50 caliber plugged machinegun mounted on top of
his truck? Ha Ha - and LNers get bent out of shape about Oswald carrying
a handgun into a theater. Only in Texas indeed, sir!

Regards,
Gary (O.H. LEE)

O.H. LEE (***@aol.com)

"Don't believe the so-called evidence."

Lee Harvey Oswald to his brother Robert
Saturday, November 23, 1963


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[Martin Shackelford]

Does anyone really believe there was a truck with a ",50 caliber
machinegun mounted to its top" within plain view of the motorcade?

Martin

Post by Vern Pascal
1. The owner of the panel truck, Joe Goldstein, was a good friend of
Jack Ruby.
2. The truck was seen by several witnesses just minutes before the
assassination in the near vicinity of the TSBD and behind the pergola.
3. It was parked near the Dallas Police Station, where LHO was being
held, the night of the 23rd.
4. Neither the DPD, nor the FBI, nor the SS, nor the WC, nor the HSCA,
were interested in what the driver of this truck had to say about all
this!
This particular truck could hardly be missed, with a .50 caliber
machinegun (plugged) mounted on its top. Only in Texas, I
guess.-------Vern

[C***@webtv.net]

Group: alt.conspiracy.jfk Date: Fri, Oct 24, 2003,
(Martin=A0Shackelford)
Does anyone really believe there was a truck with
a ",50 caliber machinegun mounted to its top"
within plain view of the motorcade?
Martin

Yes, this is the 'throat shot" that was so sneaky, and everybody knew
the carnival was coming to town.

CJ

[Martin Shackelford]

Honest Joe's truck was BEHIND the limousine--hardly a source for the
throat shot, nor was the throat shot .50 caliber. The wound is about the
same appearance as the back wound, when reconstructed.

Martin

Post by C***@webtv.net

Group: alt.conspiracy.jfk Date: Fri, Oct 24, 2003,
(Martin Shackelford)
Does anyone really believe there was a truck with
a ",50 caliber machinegun mounted to its top"
within plain view of the motorcade?
Martin

Yes, this is the 'throat shot" that was so sneaky, and everybody knew
the carnival was coming to town.
CJ

[Martin Shackelford]

I have learned that a home movie shot by Pat Sanders, among those in the
collection of the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas, includes two views of
Honest Joe's sedan ahead of the motorcade--NOTHING at all on top of the
car. "HONEST JOE" was prominent on the sides, and over the rear window
was a large "JFK" sign.

Martin

[Vern Pascal]

Martin Shackleford wrote (excerpted):

"Honest Joe's truck was BEHIND the limo."

Martin, I received an E-mail from Gary Mack who says that in an
unidentified film (Pat Robert's?) taken on Main, Honest Joe's SEDAN was
AHEAD of JFK by about a minute.
Gary describes the color of this sedan as being white with light blue
side panels, that in the film he rercognized Goldstein behind the wheel,
and that there definitely was not a machinegun, or anything else, on
top. This description hardly gibes with that of the vehicle reported by
the DP witnesses. The only color provided in Dealey, by Ms. Willis, is
BLACK, which could hardly be confused with WHITE,WITH BLUE SIDE PANELS!
As for the machinegun, maybe it was on the PawnShop itself and not atop
the vehicle at all, and the witnesses are just pain confused on this
point.

Apparently this is one of those stories that goes nowhere, and has no
resolution without more witness corroboration. But I'm still intrigued
by its being spotted outside the Police Station the night of the 23rd by
Forrest Sorrels-----Vern

[Martin Shackelford]

It would be nice to know more about "Honest Joe."

Martin

Post by Vern Pascal
"Honest Joe's truck was BEHIND the limo."
Martin, I received an E-mail from Gary Mack who says that in an
unidentified film (Pat Robert's?) taken on Main, Honest Joe's SEDAN was
AHEAD of JFK by about a minute.
Gary describes the color of this sedan as being white with light blue
side panels, that in the film he rercognized Goldstein behind the wheel,
and that there definitely was not a machinegun, or anything else, on
top. This description hardly gibes with that of the vehicle reported by
the DP witnesses. The only color provided in Dealey, by Ms. Willis, is
BLACK, which could hardly be confused with WHITE,WITH BLUE SIDE PANELS!
As for the machinegun, maybe it was on the PawnShop itself and not atop
the vehicle at all, and the witnesses are just pain confused on this
point.
Apparently this is one of those stories that goes nowhere, and has no
resolution without more witness corroboration. But I'm still intrigued
by its being spotted outside the Police Station the night of the 23rd by
Forrest Sorrels-----Vern

[C***@webtv.net]

Group: alt.conspiracy.jfk Date: Sun, Oct 26, 2003,
(Martin=A0Shackelford)
It would be nice to know more about "Honest Joe."
Martin

In one site I was at going into google, I found one spot on the menu for
Honest Joe Goldstein.

It was under Cuban Information Archives, Research Directory 2001 Editon.

Honest Joe Goldstein 151

I didn't know how to access it.

CJ

[CurtJester]

Post by Vern Pascal
"Honest Joe's truck was BEHIND the limo."
Martin, I received an E-mail from Gary Mack who says that in an
unidentified film (Pat Robert's?) taken on Main, Honest Joe's SEDAN was
AHEAD of JFK by about a minute.
Gary describes the color of this sedan as being white with light blue
side panels, that in the film he rercognized Goldstein behind the wheel,
and that there definitely was not a machinegun, or anything else, on
top. This description hardly gibes with that of the vehicle reported by
the DP witnesses. The only color provided in Dealey, by Ms. Willis, is
BLACK, which could hardly be confused with WHITE,WITH BLUE SIDE PANELS!
As for the machinegun, maybe it was on the PawnShop itself and not atop
the vehicle at all, and the witnesses are just pain confused on this
point.
Apparently this is one of those stories that goes nowhere, and has no
resolution without more witness corroboration. But I'm still intrigued
by its being spotted outside the Police Station the night of the 23rd by
Forrest Sorrels-----Vern

Vern,

It might not be much, but here is an excerpt of Forrest Sorrels
testimony that has a little info.

Stern:

And then what happened?

Mr. Sorrels.

He was told that they were going to move him to the county jail, and
he requested that he be permitted to get a shirt out of his--the
clothes that had been brought in, that belonged to him, because the
shirt he was wearing at the time he had been apprehended was taken,
apparently for laboratory examination. And so Captain Fritz sent and
got his clothes and, as I recall it, he selected a dark colored kind
of a sweater type shirt, as I recall it. And then he was taken out,
and, at that time, as I recall it, Inspector Kelley and I left and
went up to---I say up---down the hall to the executive office area of
the police department, and to the office of Deputy Chief Batchelor.

And we remained in that vicinity. I looked out the window, and saw the
people across the street, on Commerce Street, people were waiting
there. And I saw an individual that I know by the name of Ruby
Goldstein, who is known as Honest Joe, that has a second-hand tool and
pawnshop down on Elm Street, and everyone around there knows him. He
was leaning on the car looking over in the direction of the ramp there
at the police station. And we were just waiting around there.
And for a few minutes I was talking to one of the police officers that
was on duty up there in that area. And he had made the remark,
"talking about open windows, I see one open across the street over
there" at a building across the street.

I looked over there. I didn't see any activity at the window. And we
had walked out into the reception area of the executive office of the
Chief of Police there when this same police officer said that he just
heard that Oswald had got shot in the stomach in the basement by Jack
Rubin, as I understood at that time, R-u-b-i-n--who was supposed to
run a night club.

Also as a side note about the Oswald arrest attire, I didn't know he
had that changed and had gotten another piece of clothing from home
via Fritz. So, the photos I had been viewing to try to determine what
he could have been wearing at arrest might be completely off. Now I
wonder when Oswald got his change of clothing?

CJ

[C***@webtv.net]

I thought this was a little interesting. Where I stopped the quote of
Sorrels, an author, William R. Smith, wrote his own little bit after
that. This is from ASSASSINATION BY CONSENSUS, Chapter X, The Death of
Oswald, Copyright 1966, 1996.

"To put it simply, Oswald was not moved until Ruby Goldstein was in
position across the street; and apparently, Ruby Goldstein was not in
position until Jack Ruby was in position at the telegraph office."

I think he takes the liberty to suppose a lot, but if Mr. Goldstein was
an abetter in the murder of Oswald, he certainly would be a prime
candidate for his role in the motorcade and/or beyond.

CJ

[Vern Pascal]

Martin Shackleford wrote:

"Does anyone believe that there was a truck with a .'50 caliber
machinegun mounted to its top', within plain view of the motorcade?"

Martin, it sounds ridiculous doesn't it? But in the Dallas climate at
the time I'm not so sure. Besides, if the truck were behind the pergola
it wouldn't be "in plain view of the motorcade". Recall how inattentive
the SS were that day. No mention of the open windows in the TSBD, nor of
anyone with a gun in the SN window, which other bystanders saw, no
mention of UM, etc.

Aside from the assassination itself, and any role the truck may have
played in it, I,m intrigued by te fact that this truck, owned by a Ruby
friend, was parked near the Police Station on the night of the 23rd.
Also, we may consider that the plugged machinegun may have been
removed that day, and witnesses recalled the gun from previously,
actually seeing only the signage for "Honest Joe's". I just don't know,
but there should be more witnesses out there somewhere.--------Vern

[Martin Shackelford]

You're also forgetting that "Honest Joe" traveled the motorcade route
PRIOR to the motorcade--given the police and crowds along that route, do
you REALLY think he could make the drive with a machine gun affixed to
the top?

Martin

Post by Vern Pascal
"Does anyone believe that there was a truck with a .'50 caliber
machinegun mounted to its top', within plain view of the motorcade?"
Martin, it sounds ridiculous doesn't it? But in the Dallas climate at
the time I'm not so sure. Besides, if the truck were behind the pergola
it wouldn't be "in plain view of the motorcade". Recall how inattentive
the SS were that day. No mention of the open windows in the TSBD, nor of
anyone with a gun in the SN window, which other bystanders saw, no
mention of UM, etc.
Aside from the assassination itself, and any role the truck may have
played in it, I,m intrigued by te fact that this truck, owned by a Ruby
friend, was parked near the Police Station on the night of the 23rd.
Also, we may consider that the plugged machinegun may have been
removed that day, and witnesses recalled the gun from previously,
actually seeing only the signage for "Honest Joe's". I just don't know,
but there should be more witnesses out there somewhere.--------Vern

[CurtJester]

Post by Vern Pascal
(From Encyclopedia of the JfK Assassination, by Micael Benson)
"Joe Goldstein was another guy said to be 'best friends' with Jack Ruby.
Goldstein was known as a 'Dallas extrovert', an eccentric who advertised
himself as 'Honest Joe Goldstein, the Loan Ranger'. Goldstein owned a
gaudily painted Edsel with a plugged .50 caliber machine gun mounted on
the top that, according to Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels, was
parked outside the Dallas police station on Commerce Street during the
early evening of November 23.
Reporter Tony Zoppi, who watched the motorcade on Main Street, recalls,
'We all said, here comes the parade, and it was honest Joe in his
station wagon about two minutes before the parade,'
A.J. Millican, an assassination witness, told sheriff's deputies he saw
'a truck from Honest Joe's Pawn Shop park close to the Texas School Book
Depository, then drive off five to ten minutes before the assassination.
(In my next post I will highlight Millican, who heard a total of eight
shots from two different directions!!)
Assassination witness Jean Hill told Dallas reporter Jim Marrs that,
before the assassination, she had seen a van with writing on the side
that said 'Uncle Joe's Pawn Shop'. The van drove past police lines and
down the service road in front of the TSBD, and behind the pergola.
Assassination witness Marilyn Willis told FBI special agent A. Raymond
Switzer on June 19, 1964, that,30 seconds before the parade, 'there was
an old loan truck called 'Honest Joe'. He was a pawn shop operator and
his old black car was painted with all kinds of signs on it and I had a
great big gun mounted on top of that car. And he drove up Houston
towards the Depository and pulled in behind somewhere back there and
turn around and came back."
If the driver were parked behind the pergola during the shooting, he
would have been a witness not only to the assassination, but also to any
suspicious activity behind the fence in the car lot and railroad yard
area. Why wasn't he questioned? And what about him being parked outside
the police station the night before LHO's murder by his friend Jack
Ruby?! More coincidences?---------Vern

Vern,

I see there were 3 witnesses to this Joe's Pawn Shop truck. I am sure
nobody else was even was asked, and I bet there are more out there,
especially TSBD employees who would have been there by that extended
street alongside the TSBD. And then there was that Chevy in the
parking lot driven by the lady in back of the GK that Roger Craig had
stopped and was arresting, but turned it over to another deputy who
for some inexplicable reason let her go. I think it would do some
good if some memories were jogged on these.

I couldn't find anything more on Joe Goldstein at google but the only
thing related I could come up with is in David Scheim's book Contract
on America, is where George Senator and Eva Grant, Ruby's sister,
relate that Joseph Campisi was one of Ruby's closest friends and then
gives a few references. Maybe the references would go into greater
detail on Ruby's friends as this was just a mafia tie-in by Scheim.

Here are the references from pg. 123 in Chapter Nine in his book:

38. JFK Microfilm, vol. 5, p. G12.
39. CD 106, p. 89.

Abbreviation meaning and examples:

"CD 123" refers to Commission Document 123 in the collecton on the
assassination of President Kennedy in the National Archives. National
Archives documents are generally cited only when they are omitted or
not reproduced faithfully in the published 26-volume Hearings and
Exhibits.

"JFK microfilm" refers to 'Files of Evidence Connected With the
Investigation of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy
(Washington, D.C., Microcard Editions, 1967). It is a collection of
21 volumes of documents from the Texas Attorney General's
Investigation of the JFK assassination. A copy is held in the Library
of Congresss rare book collection, catalog number E842.9.F47.

CJ

[Vern Pascal]

Thanks Curt for the cites. Maybe Goldstein's first name was Ruby, rather
than Joe. See Steve's response citing Sorrels reference to "Ruby
Goldstein", and that it was only his pawn shop that was called "Honest
Joe's". Maybe a search of Ruby Goldstein might prove fruitful.-----Vern

[Walt]

Post by Vern Pascal
Thanks Curt for the cites. Maybe Goldstein's first name was Ruby, rather
than Joe. See Steve's response citing Sorrels reference to "Ruby
Goldstein", and that it was only his pawn shop that was called "Honest
Joe's". Maybe a search of Ruby Goldstein might prove fruitful.-----Vern

Hey Vern ......Did you notice that Barr Mc Clellan said that one of LBJ's
friends in Dallas was named "Ruby".
When Mac Wallace was arrested for murder, LBJ's friend M.E. Ruby posted bail
for Wallace.....

I'm left wondering if M.E. Ruby was related to Jack Ruby?

Walt

[Walt]

FWIW.... A couple of witnesses described Honest Joe's ( Would you do
business at a pawn shop called "Honest Joe's"??) vehicle as an "EDSEL" and
a "CAR"....
A panel truck is not a car, and Ford motor company never produced a panel
truck in their Edsel line...

I'm simply confused about Honest Joe's vehicle. Was it a panel truck ,or
was it a car???

Walt

Post by CurtJester

Post by Vern Pascal
(From Encyclopedia of the JfK Assassination, by Micael Benson)
"Joe Goldstein was another guy said to be 'best friends' with Jack Ruby.
Goldstein was known as a 'Dallas extrovert', an eccentric who advertised
himself as 'Honest Joe Goldstein, the Loan Ranger'. Goldstein owned a
gaudily painted Edsel with a plugged .50 caliber machine gun mounted on
the top that, according to Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels, was
parked outside the Dallas police station on Commerce Street during the
early evening of November 23.
Reporter Tony Zoppi, who watched the motorcade on Main Street, recalls,
'We all said, here comes the parade, and it was honest Joe in his
station wagon about two minutes before the parade,'
A.J. Millican, an assassination witness, told sheriff's deputies he saw
'a truck from Honest Joe's Pawn Shop park close to the Texas School Book
Depository, then drive off five to ten minutes before the assassination.
(In my next post I will highlight Millican, who heard a total of eight
shots from two different directions!!)
Assassination witness Jean Hill told Dallas reporter Jim Marrs that,
before the assassination, she had seen a van with writing on the side
that said 'Uncle Joe's Pawn Shop'. The van drove past police lines and
down the service road in front of the TSBD, and behind the pergola.
Assassination witness Marilyn Willis told FBI special agent A. Raymond
Switzer on June 19, 1964, that,30 seconds before the parade, 'there was
an old loan truck called 'Honest Joe'. He was a pawn shop operator and
his old black car was painted with all kinds of signs on it and I had a
great big gun mounted on top of that car. And he drove up Houston
towards the Depository and pulled in behind somewhere back there and
turn around and came back."
If the driver were parked behind the pergola during the shooting, he
would have been a witness not only to the assassination, but also to any
suspicious activity behind the fence in the car lot and railroad yard
area. Why wasn't he questioned? And what about him being parked outside
the police station the night before LHO's murder by his friend Jack
Ruby?! More coincidences?---------Vern

Vern,
I see there were 3 witnesses to this Joe's Pawn Shop truck. I am sure
nobody else was even was asked, and I bet there are more out there,
especially TSBD employees who would have been there by that extended
street alongside the TSBD. And then there was that Chevy in the
parking lot driven by the lady in back of the GK that Roger Craig had
stopped and was arresting, but turned it over to another deputy who
for some inexplicable reason let her go. I think it would do some
good if some memories were jogged on these.
I couldn't find anything more on Joe Goldstein at google but the only
thing related I could come up with is in David Scheim's book Contract
on America, is where George Senator and Eva Grant, Ruby's sister,
relate that Joseph Campisi was one of Ruby's closest friends and then
gives a few references. Maybe the references would go into greater
detail on Ruby's friends as this was just a mafia tie-in by Scheim.
38. JFK Microfilm, vol. 5, p. G12.
39. CD 106, p. 89.
"CD 123" refers to Commission Document 123 in the collecton on the
assassination of President Kennedy in the National Archives. National
Archives documents are generally cited only when they are omitted or
not reproduced faithfully in the published 26-volume Hearings and
Exhibits.
"JFK microfilm" refers to 'Files of Evidence Connected With the
Investigation of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy
(Washington, D.C., Microcard Editions, 1967). It is a collection of
21 volumes of documents from the Texas Attorney General's
Investigation of the JFK assassination. A copy is held in the Library
of Congresss rare book collection, catalog number E842.9.F47.
CJ

[Steve Thomas]

Walt,

Post by Walt
FWIW.... A couple of witnesses described Honest Joe's ( Would you do
business at a pawn shop called "Honest Joe's"??) vehicle as an "EDSEL" and
a "CAR"....
A panel truck is not a car, and Ford motor company never produced a panel
truck in their Edsel line...
I'm simply confused about Honest Joe's vehicle. Was it a panel truck ,or
was it a car???

I got an email from Gary Mack. He told me that the Sixth Floor museum
has a home movie showing Honest Joe preceding the motorcade by a
couple of minutes. He was driving his Edsel, not his truck with the
machine gun mounted on top.

Steve Thomas

PS: Does anyone know what color Goldstein's panel truck was?

[Steve Thomas]

Post by Steve Thomas
PS: Does anyone know what color Goldstein's panel truck was?

According to the DPD tape transcripts, at 2:04 PM, Unit 474A
(identified only as Special Services Bureau) radios in and says he
needs a wrecker at Cobb's stadium "for suspect's car." (23H881)

According to CE 1974 at 23H885, at approximately 2:20PM, Unit 474A
is dispatched to pick up a "subject on this overpass, carrying a
rifle; railroad tracks, Cobb Stadium." 474A was asked if he could see
the subject. 474A said no, but that they would go over and get him.

At 2:23, Unit 22 (Patrolman L.L. Hill) was dispatched to go out to
Cobb Stadium on the railroad track overpass and meet 474A at the
railroad tracks. "There is a white male carrying a rifle" (23H886)

At 2:26, unit 562 (a wrecker) radioed in and said that he was at Cobb
stadium "for that suspect's car" (23H887). The Dispatcher told the
wrecker to wait there, that 474A will "be back in a minute".

At 2:27, Unit 52(unknown) radioed in and asked if the T.C. Cobb
Stadium was on the Hines Blvd overpass, the railroad overpass, or the
freeway overpass and asked which direction the suspect was walking.
The Dispatcher's response was garbled, but said he didn't know about
the direction. (23H887)

At 2:28 Patrolman Hill reported that he was with the wrecker at Cobb
Stadium and Unit 474A was ordered to go there. (23H887)

474A radios in and says, "The car that we want picked up is on the
parking lot if front of the Merchandise Mart just north of Cobb
Stadium."

22 asks if it is a 1964 Falcon. 474A says, "No. It is a red panel
truck with writing on the side... license plate 3E9087. (23H888)

At 2:26, unit 562 (a wrecker) radioed in and said that he was at Cobb
stadium "for that suspect's car" (23H887). The Dispatcher told the
wrecker to wait there, that 474A will "be back in a minute".

There follows as series of transmissions from 474A looking for Deputy
Chief M.W. Stevenson and Lieutenant C.C. Wallace.

Steve Thomas

[Vern Pascal]

We may be dealing with two separate vehicles, both owned by Goldstein,
and both displaying the "Honest Joe's" logo. As to color, assassination
witness Marilyn Willis called the vehicle she saw both an "old loan
truck" and an "old BLACK car", with a machine-gun on top. (see my first
post in this thread). Forrest Sorrels apparently saw an old, gaudilly
painted Edsel, parked near the Police Station the night of the 23rd.
This is a car, not a truck, and is ostensibly is the vehicle with the
machine gun mounted on top. Sorrels does not describe the color of this
vehicle, but apparently it is the same one seen by Willis just before
the assassination.. Reporter Tony Zoppi mentions Honest Joe "in his
station wagon", just prior to the motorcade, but did not include the
machine-gun inhis brief descrfiption, maybe because this strangre sight
was a Dallas fixture. Assassination witness A.J. Millican mentions
"Honest Joe's truck" , but again not the gun on top. I suppose that in
some people's minds, a station wagon, especially a large one, might be
confused with a truck, especially a panel truck. So the only make
offered by any of the witnesses (one) is "Edsel", and the only color
(one witness), is "black".

Speaking of suspicious trucks, we have Julia Ann Mercer's account of a
green Ford pickup shortly before 11:00 a,m. on the 22nd, parked near the
grassy knoll, with two occupants, the thinner of whom carried what
looked like a guncase up towards the fence, and the driver who she
later identified as Jack Ruby, or a dead-ringer! Now who owned a green
Ford pickup?----------Vern

[G***@webtv.net]

Group: alt.conspiracy.jfk Date: Wed, Oct 22,
(From Encyclopedia of the JfK Assassination,
by Micael Benson)
"Joe Goldstein was another guy said to be
'best friends' with Jack Ruby. Goldstein was
known as a 'Dallas extrovert', an eccentric
who advertised himself as 'Honest Joe
Goldstein, the Loan Ranger'. Goldstein
owned a gaudily painted Edsel with a plugged
.50 caliber machine gun mounted on the top
that, according to Secret Service agent
Forrest Sorrels, was parked outside the
Dallas police station on Commerce Street
during the early evening of November 23.
Reporter Tony Zoppi, who watched the
motorcade on Main Street, recalls, 'We all
said, here comes the parade, and it was
honest Joe in his station wagon about two
minutes before the parade,'
A.J. Millican, an assassination witness, told
sheriff's deputies he saw 'a truck from Honest
Joe's Pawn Shop park close to the Texas
School Book Depository, then drive off five to
ten minutes before the assassination.

I was just doing some researching in some of Richard Bartholomew's 1994
updated version of some Fair Play article, that I reached online in the
'Byrds, Planes, and an Automobile' section from google, and it had a
snippit on "honest Joe", and am printing it as a potential tie-in to the
topic, in case someone has access or can research the cited source and
article.

Quoted paragraph from article by R. Bartholomew:
________________________________
If "Jack" is Jack Dulles, the adjunct UT professor and expert on Brazil,
this gets quite interesting considering Greg Doyle's latest findings on
"Honest Joe" (The Fourth Decade, vol. 1, no. 5, July 1994, pp. 13-16). I
accept, based on John Franklyn Elrod and other evidence, that Ruby and
Oswald were involved in gun running together. Given that, it is not a
stretch to accept a Paine-Ruby link through Oswald. There are also the
likely Paine-Ruby links through her friend Mamantov and Ruby's buddy
Periera -- both of Magnolia Laboratories. Now we learn from Doyle that
Julius Schepps, associate and financier of Ruby's closest friends, was
friendly with Benjamin H. Stephens, one of the organizers of Magnolia
Oil, a director of Standard Oil, and an advisor to Harold Ickes, FDR's
interior secretary. There are several Ruby-Dulles connections suggested
by this.

CJ